Now who will they blame??

The following is in response to the eleven U. S. states that passed anti-Gay-marriage amendments this past Election Day, November 2, 2004:

Question 1) How many heterosexual women woke up the day after these votes and said, "Gee, now that marriage has been saved from homosexuals, maybe I shouldn't ask my third husband for a divorce after all?"

Question 2) How many heterosexual guys said, "Now that gays can't get married, I can finally respect the institution of marriage, marry my girlfriend, and take care of our four out of wedlock kids."

Instead of helping to rehabilitate the institution of marriage, the polarizing debate over these amendments served as a distraction from real marriage issues. Bashing a minority is a lot easier and more lucrative for "pro-family" groups than facing true threats to the family like divorce, abuse, addiction, unemployment, lack of relationship and parenting skills, lack of intimacy and effective communication skills, and infidelity.

Now that the eleven amendments have passed and gay people can no longer be scapegoated, do those that worked wo hard to "protect marriage" plan to offer any substantive plans to fix the REAL problems that end marriages? If not, it reveals that they are not "pro-family" or "pro-marriage" but simply ANTI-GAY.

Ahahahahaha you make this sound like a shock .... of course these people arent "pro family" but rather "anti-gay"

It's sad that this country was founded on the *idea* that everyone is free to persue happiness but reality says that happiness is persuant to not "grossing out" the conservatives.

But then, these ARE the same guys that said everyone is considered equal .. unless you arent a land owner, a woman or black.

As Penn and Teller say ... "TALK ABOUT BULLSHIT!!!"

twinkley

Ya know what's needed is a top notch, all out campaign (like only the GLBT community can do) to really save marriage -- addressing the problems of divorce, abuse, addiction, unemployment, lack of relationship and parenting skills, lack of intimacy and effective communication skills, and infidelity and promoting communication, commitment and caring.

Why fight for equal civil marriage rights -- who'd want to get in a sinking ship. Let's be the ones to fix it!! And then dare anyone to say we can't come aboard!!

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Originally posted by jonjayw
Ya know what's needed is a top notch, all out campaign (like only the GLBT community can do) to really save marriage -- addressing the problems of divorce, abuse, addiction, unemployment, lack of relationship and parenting skills, lack of intimacy and effective communication skills, and infidelity and promoting communication, commitment and caring.

Why fight for equal civil marriage rights -- who'd want to get in a sinking ship. Let's be the ones to fix it!! And then dare anyone to say we can't come aboard!!

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You know, although that may be the right thing to do, i honestly dont think it will happen.

I honestly think the pro-gay right wing really doesnt give a shit about 'marriage' this whole thing has been a political game and nothing more IMHO, I said when the whole 'gay marriage' debate started that it wasnt about equality but forcing our lifestyle on the general populous and, whilst many of the people in and around the US are concerned that gay couples do not have the same legal rights that our straight counterparts do, forcing the 'marriage' issue has done the gay community more harm than good in the long run.

Do i care whether Gary and I can legally marry? No.I know no matter what we have a relationship built on our beleif system that will last without having the need for a peice of paper saying our relationship is 'approved'.

Now would i want the same rights when it came to hospital visitations etc, absolutely, but to get those, i dont see why we need to be married and, im sure im not the only one in the gay community that feels this way.

Regards,

Lee

To be honest, I'd have to disagree with you Lee. I think it does matter a great deal because marraige rights is just a tip of the iceberg really.

If you can limit one person's rights in any way, you can then limit other rights too as the mood comes to those in power.

Consider the 'abstinence' issue in schools.. The 'right' believe that only teaching about abstinence is the way to prevent teenage pregnancy and disease, but have you read the report on how they push it? Check out 365 Gay Com Article and see what some are saying about gay sex.

Homosexuality is villified in the USA today, for whatever reason and obtaining same sex marraige rights will go a long way to refuting those claims. It loudly says that 'we are humans too' and that in itself has to count.

Also there is the legal issue. USA courts place a great deal of importance on what words are used to describe things. Contract vs Agreement for example. Hence 'marraige' must be the term in order to gain full respect of the courts. Too many 'unions' have had their rights trampled simply because they weren't a 'marraige'.

In my opinion it is counter productive to not push for same rights. In a way it is like a guy who sits at home all day and night but wants a meaningful relationship. As long as he sits at home he isn't going to find that special someone. You have to get out, to meet, to talk, to try, or you just gonna wind up spending your life alone. Equal rights are no different, if our gay lifestyle wants the benefits and rights accorded to all others, we can't sit home wishing for it. We need to get out and fight for it, where ever we can.

Just my opinion though.

On a side note, I have been with my partner for 8 years and while I agree, I don't need any certificate to show how much we love each other, it is something that shows others how much we mean to each other. Marrying Dave is something that in our hearts doesnt prove we love each other, but it does to all who knows us, and to those who don't.

To me, and to Dave, we don't want to be tolerated, we want to be accepted. That takes work on our part too, which is one more reason why we are marrying. To show our families and friends that this isn't some odd peculiar behaviour but something just as real and just as enduring as any other couple who love and care for each other.

Ian

A lot of good posts in here.

I lead by example and stand up for myself at every opportunity publicly regarding Gay issues.

When partners are together for many years, and have assets together, when one dies or is hospitalized, things get very sticky, needlessly. Unless of course you go to an attorney and incur the added expense and headache to cover your ass.

As a member of the Gay community, I support a couples right to a legally binding Civil Union, or marriage.

"I said when the whole 'gay marriage' debate started that it wasn’t about equality but forcing our lifestyle on the general populous"

People said that about women voting and black rights as well. "Why rock the boat, just let things stay the same", "You're just causing problems", "women don't want to vote, only a few radicals.", "Gays don't want to marry, it's just a political ploy by radicals."

In 1776 Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence, which states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Equality isn't provided only to heterosexuals, blacks or women. We are all equal, and we are all equally guaranteed the same rights. There is nothing "right wing" or "radical" about this view, it is one of the core values that America is based upon.

"forcing the 'marriage' issue has done the gay community more harm than good in the long run."

Standing up for yourself is never a bad thing, it lets people know that you have worth as a human being. "In the long run" when we keep coming back, and coming back, and coming back, people will know that we will not rest until we are considered equal. My .0000002 cents. :high:

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To be honest, I'd have to disagree with you Lee. I think it does matter a great deal because marraige rights is just a tip of the iceberg really.

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No probs Ian you have every right to disagree with me just as i have to disagree with you, ill not hold that against you hehe.

I would agree with you on the gay marriage issue being the tip of the iceberg though, who knows what else the gay-right want to use this 'cause' for?

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If you can limit one person's rights in any way, you can then limit other rights too as the mood comes to those in power.

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Agreed however, i think we may be confusing limiting peoples rights with forcing others views onto society as a whole.

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Consider the 'abstinence' issue in schools.. The 'right' believe that only teaching about abstinence is the way to prevent teenage pregnancy and disease, but have you read the report on how they push it? Check out 365 Gay Com Article and see what some are saying about gay sex.

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Yep i read that the other day, however, it doesnt directly relate to the gay marriage issue but i would agree the way abstinence is being taught is crazy and again, it just goes to show the other side will use fearmongering in order to get their point across, just as the pro-gay groups have done in the past.

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Homosexuality is villified in the USA today, for whatever reason and obtaining same sex marraige rights will go a long way to refuting those claims. It loudly says that 'we are humans too' and that in itself has to count.

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No offence babe but it doesnt do that at all. interracial marriages are still looked down upon in many southern states and they can LEGALLY marry, whether or not gay couples have a peice of paper saying they are allowed to be together is going to make no difference to peoples opinions whatsoever.

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Also there is the legal issue. USA courts place a great deal of importance on what words are used to describe things. Contract vs Agreement for example. Hence 'marraige' must be the term in order to gain full respect of the courts. Too many 'unions' have had their rights trampled simply because they weren't a 'marraige'.

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But that is something completely different again, the wording of a union between any two consenting adults shouldnt be what defines their relationship.. should it?

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In my opinion it is counter productive to not push for same rights.

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Yet even though there was a push for equal marriage rights, 11 states (if i recall correctly) struck down gay marriage during the recent election.. you have to wonder if it wasnt used as such a powerfull political tool the months prior to the election if the same would have happened.

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Equal rights are no different, if our gay lifestyle wants the benefits and rights accorded to all others, we can't sit home wishing for it. We need to get out and fight for it, where ever we can.

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'Equal rights' i have no issues ith equal rights whatsoever, im all for equality, gay , straight, black, white, male or female. But forcing the gay marriage issue isnt the way to go about getting equality.

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On a side note, I have been with my partner for 8 years and while I agree, I don't need any certificate to show how much we love each other, it is something that shows others how much we mean to each other. Marrying Dave is something that in our hearts doesnt prove we love each other, but it does to all who knows us, and to those who don't.

To me, and to Dave, we don't want to be tolerated, we want to be accepted. That takes work on our part too, which is one more reason why we are marrying. To show our families and friends that this isn't some odd peculiar behaviour but something just as real and just as enduring as any other couple who love and care for each other.

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Awesome stuff :thumbsup:

Dont forget my invite ;)

Regards,

Lee

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A lot of good posts in here.

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Indeed there are :)

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I lead by example and stand up for myself at every opportunity publicly regarding Gay issues.

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That awesome and im sure we all stand up for ourselves at any chance we get :)

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When partners are together for many years, and have assets together, when one dies or is hospitalized, things get very sticky, needlessly. Unless of course you go to an attorney and incur the added expense and headache to cover your ass.

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Yep but that isnt a 'gay marriage' issue. Thats an issue of law.. two completely seperate things.

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As a member of the Gay community, I support a couples right to a legally binding Civil Union, or marriage.

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As do i. I just think the way the issue was forced into the spotlight was all wrong and had a negative effect because of how the 'battle' was fought.

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"I said when the whole 'gay marriage' debate started that it wasn’t about equality but forcing our lifestyle on the general populous"

People said that about women voting and black rights as well. "Why rock the boat, just let things stay the same", "You're just causing problems", "women don't want to vote, only a few radicals.", "Gays don't want to marry, it's just a political ploy by radicals."

In 1776 Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence, which states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Equality isn't provided only to heterosexuals, blacks or women. We are all equal, and we are all equally guaranteed the same rights. There is nothing "right wing" or "radical" about this view, it is one of the core values that America is based upon.

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Again, the gay marriage issue isnt whats at hand here.. its a LEGAL issue. Do the laws need to be changed? Hell yes. Have the people representing the 'gay community' gone about it the right way? Hell no.

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"forcing the 'marriage' issue has done the gay community more harm than good in the long run."

Standing up for yourself is never a bad thing, it lets people know that you have worth as a human being. "In the long run" when we keep coming back, and coming back, and coming back, people will know that we will not rest until we are considered equal. My .0000002 cents. :high:

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But forcing the gay marriage isnt isnt about 'standing up for ourselves'. It was politically motivated and will continue to be until a new approach is taken.

Regards,

Lee

"'Equal rights' i have no issues ith equal rights whatsoever, im all for equality, gay , straight, black, white, male or female. But forcing the gay marriage issue isnt the way to go about getting equality."

I don't understand how being equal in marriage is different then anything else? Do you realize that the marriage/civil unions issue is pretty close to being one of the last inequality we suffer in the Gay community? If Gay marriage/civil unions are legalized, it takes care of a ton of other Gay rights issues like partner benefits, probate issues, hospital visit rights, child custody, etc.

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Originally posted by Squirt
I don't understand how being equal in marriage is different then anything else? Do you realize that the marriage/civil unions issue is pretty close to being one of the last inequality we suffer in the Gay community? If Gay marriage/civil unions are legalized, it takes care of a ton of other Gay rights issues like partner benefits, probate issues, hospital visit rights, child custody, etc.

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You seem to be missing my point Squirt ;)

Im for equality no matter what however, i think the way the gay marriage is being fought currently is motivated purely by politics and nothing else.

The other issues you meantioned, probate, visitation rights etc, etc, are inherantly issues of law that need to be addressed not political / religious issues like marriage.

Regards,

Lee

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When partners are together for many years, and have assets together, when one dies or is hospitalized, things get very sticky, needlessly. Unless of course you go to an attorney and incur the added expense and headache to cover your ass.
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"Yep but that isnt a 'gay marriage' issue. Thats an issue of law.. two completely seperate things."

Lee when a couple marry, they are instantly afforded many rights and priveledges because they are married and for no other reason.

Marriage and civil unions show a commitment between two people in the eyes of our government, and marriage is a legally binding agreement. Law, marriage, and government are intertwind.

"That awesome and im sure we all stand up for ourselves at any chance we get"

Unfortunately a lot of people don't stand up for themselves regarding Gay issues. A lot of people just take it and deal with it. There have been so many posts on GWW alone of Gay webmasters working for straight companies dealing with issue after issue. If we all stood up for ourselves publicly regarding Gay issues things would be a lot different, in a good way :high:

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Originally posted by Squirt
Lee when a couple marry, they are instantly afforded many rights and priveledges because they are married and for no other reason.

Marriage and civil unions show a commitment between two people in the eyes of our government, and marriage is a legally binding agreement. Law and marriage are intertwind.

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Which is exactly why it becomes an issue of LAW for the points you mentioned, the LAW shouldnt be any different whether you are single or married, gay or straight.

The US needs a major overhaul of law reform.

Why isnt that being concentrated on instead of the 'marriage' issue? Wouldnt having an overhaul of the laws have a much more positive and, easier effect on everyones lives?

I would say it would have been a MUCH easier sell pushing for law reform than gay marriage. However, the damage is already done.

Regards,

Lee

Greetings:

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Originally posted by Lee
Now would i want the same rights when it came to hospital visitations etc, absolutely, but to get those, i dont see why we need to be married

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Southern people attempted to tell "niggers" that separate but equal is appropriate, now they're trying to tell "faggots" the same thing. Apparently they are even managing to convince some of us of it.

A shame..................

There is NO way to grant gay couples the over 1,000 federal rights that exist for married couples, without the institution of marriage.

Even the Supreme Court had the wisdom to realize that separated, by definition, can never be equal.

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Originally posted by JustMe
Southern people attempted to tell "niggers" that separate but equal is appropriate, now they're trying to tell "faggots" the same thing. Apparently they are even managing to convince some of us of it.

A shame..................

There is NO way to grant gay couples the over 1,000 federal rights that exist for married couples, without the institution of marriage.

Even the Supreme Court had the wisdom to realize that separated, by definition, can never be equal.

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I dont disagree with you :)

I do however disagree with using the gay marriage issue as a religious / political one.

The whole thing could have been approached a lot more subtley than it has been. THAT is my issue.

Regards,

Lee

"http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/marriage.html"


I understand where you're coming from Lee but, by definition, marriage is a legal contract.

The American institution of marriage is a English common law tradition, so it's not just an American issue.

Marriage is a legal contract that all societies recognize and enforce.

A good short synapses of marriage etc. is located here

Since before Christ marriage has been a legally binding agreement between two people. I think that your notion of changing the whole legal system to obtain rights for Gay couples is flawed as the very premise of marriage/civil unions, and the dictionary definition is; The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.

"The whole thing could have been approached a lot more subtley than it has been. THAT is my issue."

There really is not subtle way to say "Gay people should be allowed to marry." it's pretty straight forward.

Greetings:

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Originally posted by Lee
I dont disagree with you :)

I do however disagree with using the gay marriage issue as a religious / political one.

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Well, fine then. I don't disagree with you either :P

However, I don't think it was the gay community that started on the marriage foot. Personally, I think the marriage issue was brought up by the right wing as a response to the Supreme Court's decision on sodomy laws, aka Lawrence v. Texas.

Squirt..

The problem with 'textbook' definitions is that they dont pay attention to the politics and religious effects that come into play with the definition.

Almost like the separation of church and state.. one cant survive without the other, as we found out recently :)

Regards,

Lee

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Originally posted by JustMe
I think the marriage issue was brought up by the right wing as a response to the Supreme Court's decision on sodomy laws, aka Lawrence v. Texas.

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Exactly my point.

It was used as a manipulation tool and, lets be honest, its worked EXTREMELY well so far. For the opposing sides.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally posted by Lee
Squirt..

The problem with 'textbook' definitions is that they dont pay attention to the politics and religious effects that come into play with the definition.

Almost like the separation of church and state.. one cant survive without the other, as we found out recently :)

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"I do however disagree with using the gay marriage issue as a religious / political one."

Lee, how are laws passed? By acts of legislation. How is legislation made? By elected officials. How does one get elected? By getting the most votes in an election. Who votes in elections? People vote.

Politics creates laws, law is a part of marriage. To change one, or the other, you must do it politically.

Marriage is legally binding act and a commitment made before God. You cannot address the issue of marriage without it involving religion or the law. Again, law and politics go hand in hand, that is why, automatically, Gay marriage is a legal, religious and political issue with no effort or manipulation on anyones part whatsoever.

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Originally posted by Squirt
Lee, how are laws passed? By acts of legislation. How is legislation made? By elected officials. How does one get elected? By getting the most votes in an election. Who votes in elections? People vote.

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How do you get people to vote? Offer them something they want in return ;)

Regards,

Lee