At What Point Do You Fire A Marketing Rep?

Just curious to see what everyone thought about this?

Say you have hired someone for a marketing role, to drum up new business, make contacts with people in the industry etc etc, at what point do you decide that they should be let go?

Im torn on this one myself, on one side of the coin, the marketing side of me seems to think that a month or so of not making any new contacts becomes the point where the person becomes useless and should be let go, likewise, if they are only bringing the same companies to the table over and over again. However, from a business owners point of view, if someone is wasting time purely posting on boards, for my company less than they do for other companies, thats the point where they need to be fired.

Your thoughts on this? Where is the ideal line drawn in a situation such as this especially, if the person doing the marketing is in a salaried position?

Regards,

Lee

Greetings:

Uhuh, if you're Lee's marketing rep right now, I'd be looking for new work.....

:huh:

As a matter of fact, I NEED a marketing rep about now. Someone that can do things like, ooooh, hrmmmm, maybe post nice things on boards to keep me from looking like a jackass?

Yeah, that'd be nice right about now.

Lee's rep, whoever you are, if Lee fires you, let me know!

:D

You have a marketing rep? Or are you talking about someone else's marketing rep? Hmm...

Sure busness is busness but I believe in chances. Maybe this person is getting heat from a different employer for this very reason and is trying o make that situation right too.

Give it some time. Talk to the employee, maybe this person has other troubles right now and needs some compassion. Or maybe, I'm too soft and this is why I suck at business. lol

This is a hard question to answer. This is a hard business to break into and make contacts. Everything gets done sometimes at a snails pace.

Id say 6 months to make it or brake it!! There are lots of other varialbes but at some point the return on investment must be seen. If I even see the potential of the person turning into something great Id keep them on for an extented period of time but atsome point dead weight is dead weight!

I am learning the hard way how hard it is to find the right match for this kind of position!

Here is the best, When I am interviewing someone and I ask what qualifies them for the position half of them say well Im Gay and Like Porn. Oh Ok LOL!!!!

i guess it really depends, but it seems to me that a rep should bring in new people - or at least new ideas that will lead to new people. they should also wear your banner in their sig on the boards, so that your brand gets known.

of course, these days a lot of companies have part-time reps, and that makes it more confusing. and obviously if you work for two companies, you can have their button or banner in your sig standing out if there are two - but you can't have two on most boards.

if your rep is building enthusiasm in existing affiliates, that might make you money with the existing affiliates. that would make him/her worth a salary.

lee, without more information, it's impossible to answer this question. but 30 days seems like a long time not to bring in ANY new webmasters - is this rep sending webmaster traffic, at least?

JustMe - let's talk at the end of next week. i'm not sure if i'll be available, but i like your boyalley's retention and i like your responses to things that need doing :)

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Originally Posted by Mindy

well Im Gay and Like Porn.

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LMAO you know why thats funny? Because its so damned true LOL

The amount of people who think just because they watch porn and are gay they can market the stuff too :huh:

Im sorry but IMHO just because you know how to watch porn and are gay that doesnt make you a great marketing person.

It always amazes me when i see who some companies hire to do the marketing of their gay sites, just because someone is gay and 'appears' to know a lot of people on a board, that doesnt necessarily translate in to knowing a lot of business minded people, there is networking and there are business contacts. One type of person is easy to find, the other needs work, lots of it to find.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by basschick

lee, without more information, it's impossible to answer this question. but 30 days seems like a long time not to bring in ANY new webmasters - is this rep sending webmaster traffic, at least?

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Well this was actually just a generalized question aimed at provoking a discussion because i happen to know of a few people who have been reading GWW lately tying to find a marketing rep for their gay products.

One of the reasons they have been looking is because their existing rep has been spending more time promoting her friends products than the companies she is supposedly being paid by to do marketing.

Regards,

Lee

lee, i totally agree. there are some nice people out there who love porn - but they don't know how to make people want to sell porn or a particular site. the two aren't related. besides, there are some people out there who aren't gay, and market gay sites very well. being gay isn't a passport to marketing to surfers or webmasters.

you know what i don't understand? why a gay company wouldn't want a rep who is active in the gay community but also active in the strt8 community. after all, str8 webmasters sometimes market gay porn. why miss a market?

Actually, as a side question i just thought of this..

Do you think a person posting on boards on a daily basis with a sig for the program they are working for is adequate for a marketing rep?

I know id be extremely pissed if i was paying someone a salary to post on a board all day.

Your thoughts?

Regards,

Lee

i know some part-time marketing reps, and i've never really been able to see it. i know of one program which isn't making any money because their rep is putting her other companies on the consoles and upsell page - which would be okay IF they were selling, but they aren't making a dime.

also how does a rep working more than one program respond when a thread comes up that says "Looking for sponsors with FHG's"? to have the most effect on people reading that thread, that rep should only mention one program.

if the rep is not pushing my program, i'd talk to her about what was happening. for me, that would not be a reasonable situation. i can't pay someone for simply lumping me in with several programs - my affiliates can do that.

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Originally Posted by Lee

One of the reasons they have been looking is because their existing rep has been spending more time promoting her friends products than the companies she is supposedly being paid by to do marketing.

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Originally Posted by basschick

why a gay company wouldn't want a rep who is active in the gay community but also active in the strt8 community. after all, str8 webmasters sometimes market gay porn. why miss a market?

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Agreed totally!

But that being said, there are a few gay companies that simply dont understand the concept of cross demographic promotion.

in the last 4 or 5 years i honestly can only think of 1 large gay owned affiliate program that has promoted their products on predominantly promoted their program on straight resources too... Pride Bucks.

It would seem to me that Pride Bucks are grabbing a lot of potential business from other programs for doing this :thumbsup:

Regards,

Lee

depends on what they were hired to do. a marketing rep doesn't just get affiliates, they are their contact to the program. a rep finds out you need certain banners, or finds out what your special linking options are. a rep takes care of checks that went astray, and is the affiliates' personal link to the company.

what you are talking about is a board whore - although if you got someone well-known on the boards - sort of famous - to do this, it could be worth the money.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Actually, as a side question i just thought of this..

Do you think a person posting on boards on a daily basis with a sig for the program they are working for is adequate for a marketing rep?

I know id be extremely pissed if i was paying someone a salary to post on a board all day.

Your thoughts?

Regards,

Lee

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That's a tough one. I think it depends on what kind of expectations were laid out initially.

Also, I've learned over the past year that not all marketing efforts produce immediate results. I started with MANcheck the middle of May 2004. One of the things I was supposed to do was bring in new webmasters. There was an initial flurry of activity in the first couple of months, but then very little for months after that. And the initial activity didn't amount to a lot financially. Then in January I met dalimili and he's made up for the whole year, along with a couple of others since then.

It takes a while to build contacts, to communicate with them, to make new contacts at trade shows, and don't forget, a new employee or rep has to climatize to you and your organization. I really wouldn't expect anything on a big scale for the first year.

dzinerbear

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

That's a tough one. I think it depends on what kind of expectations were laid out initially.

Also, I've learned over the past year that not all marketing efforts produce immediate results. I started with MANcheck the middle of May 2004. One of the things I was supposed to do was bring in new webmasters. There was an initial flurry of activity in the first couple of months, but then very little for months after that. And the initial activity didn't amount to a lot financially. Then in January I met dalimili and he's made up for the whole year, along with a couple of others since then.

It takes a while to build contacts, to communicate with them, to make new contacts at trade shows, and don't forget, a new employee or rep has to climatize to you and your organization. I really wouldn't expect anything on a big scale for the first year.

dzinerbear

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Hmmm, I think I need a rep too OR a Dilimili. hehehe :goof:

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Originally Posted by Lee

Actually, as a side question i just thought of this..

Do you think a person posting on boards on a daily basis with a sig for the program they are working for is adequate for a marketing rep?

I know id be extremely pissed if i was paying someone a salary to post on a board all day.

Your thoughts?

Regards,

Lee

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A Good marketing rep is dropping seeds everywhere. The boards are just a portion of what needs to be done.

Now what is most important to me is not only they drop the seeds but they stay around to cultivate and watch as the business grows. In this business where many are a one man band you need to have excelent follow up skills. Be tenatous just dont be obnoxous! (Sorry for my most excelent spelling skills!!!)

Mindy - some people have trouble being tenacious without being obnoxious. several programs guaranteed i would never promote them by nagging and annoying me. i'm sure others have had the same experience.

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Originally Posted by basschick

Mindy - some people have trouble being tenacious without being obnoxious. several programs guaranteed i would never promote them by nagging and annoying me. i'm sure others have had the same experience.

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Very true, but I can not tell you how many put you aside cause they are so busy and your friendly reminder keeps them from ditching your deal all together!

that's true. it's a fine line...

lee, your posts don't talk about whether the rep is taking care of affiliates. support is often a full-time job, and a very important one.

Good note Mindy !

Agree.

if you're hiring a rep, that is someone who is out there solely to represent your business plan/vision, you should have a clear job description laid out for them when they start. A *good* supervisor lets the employee know exactly what is expected of them and provides clear and precise goals. If those expectations are clearly stated and the marketing rep is coming up short, it will be no surprise to either the rep or the supervisor that the situation isn't working.

I've seen a lot of people look to hire a lower-paid "rep" and expect them to play the role of the visionary. In theory, the rep should step into a company that has an established marketing plan. If you're looking for someone to create that plan, you're not looking for a rep, but a higher level manager or director.

Yea clearly you are not happy so let him know that !
Communication is the key !
If you feel they are not doing "their" work or what you discussed with
them (job description) just fire him/her.
Just say the magic words "don't take it personal it is just business". :twink:

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Originally Posted by basschick

i know some part-time marketing reps, and i've never really been able to see it. i know of one program which isn't making any money because their rep is putting her other companies on the consoles and upsell page - which would be okay IF they were selling, but they aren't making a dime.

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Good point but do you think of that person as a marketing rep for an individual company or, a marketing company promoting an individual program, there are differences between the two.

Actually, come to think of it, has anyone on GWW used a marketing company in the adult industry to push their sites and if so, how did you find the results for you?

I know a few companies who have used a PR firm over the past 3-6 months who have been extremely unhappy with the services they received, in some cases paying $1500+ a month for nothing more than posting 1 message every few days on a few forums that have next to no gay presence at all.

However i guess the same could also be true for companies who have a dedicated in house rep who only posts on boards with very little market exposure.

Your thoughts and feedback on companies handling the marketing needs of more than 1 client at a time?

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Lee

Your thoughts and feedback on companies handling the marketing needs of more than 1 client at a time?

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It has got to happen.

If the client is going to be able to pay an outsourced marketing rep less money than they'd have to pay to hire a dedicated one in house, that marketing rep is going to have to work for more than one company in order to be able to pay their own salary. That's just the way it is. And so by that marketing rep having a number of different clients, each client can pay a fraction of what it'd cost to bring on someone full time.

It's then up to the marketing rep to be sure they fairly balance their time between clients according to what the clients pay and what promises the rep has delivered.

But unless and until a client wants to hire someone fulltime and put em on the payroll they best expect that rep to be working for other people as well. A good outsourced marketing rep should still be able to generate return for the clients that makes them even more appealing than a full time employee, generating revenue and exposure and being of value to a disproportionately higher degree than they're costing the client. And a good fulltime, dedicated marketing rep should be able to generate revenue and exposure and be of more value than a cheaper, outsourced option. hehe.

You fire a rep when you'd fire anyone else - their value to your company no longer justifies the expense they constitute, and a reversal of that situation simply doesn't seem likely.

I was in the same position earlier this month deciding whether to keep my marketing guys or not. As it turned out, they dropped me! Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by RainGurl

if you're hiring a rep, that is someone who is out there solely to represent your business plan/vision, you should have a clear job description laid out for them when they start. A *good* supervisor lets the employee know exactly what is expected of them and provides clear and precise goals. If those expectations are clearly stated and the marketing rep is coming up short, it will be no surprise to either the rep or the supervisor that the situation isn't working.

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I just started reading this thread and saw Michael's and Rainey's response. I so totally agree with you both.

I was talking to a business friend the other day who was getting pissed at one of her people for not doing something right. My first question was, "Did you lay out exactly what and how the person is supposed to do this?"

Her response was, "Well, no! But it's not the way I want him to do it."

Of course my response was , "then he's not doing a damn thing wrong."

Unless you lay out a solid plan and how to make it work the way you want it to happen and the boundaries in which he or she is allowed to vary, you can't complain about how it's getting down.

Now, if you've laid out a concise plan of action and it's not getting done... then do what you have to.

My best,
Gary-Alan

i just stopped being a marketing rep for a company... well, sort of. the job grew and grew, and somehow i never got a chance to BE a marketing rep. i was too busy supervising the designers, choosing and zipping and uploading the member content, writing the text, dealing with the new content, choosing new niches, changing the member areas...

so they hired ANOTHER marketing rep - one who was shared between 3 companies, and as a result, wasn't identified with any one company. it didn't work out well.

i think a GOOD marketing rep who is identified with your company can be a real asset - as long as they don't send people "i don't know" or "everything is working fine" emails when there are problems. a person who carries your button in their sig, who answers all threads that come up about your program, who keeps in touch with your affiliates in a friendly way to let them know what's new or reminds them to send traffic, who keeps track of threads like "what programs offer custom banners?" or "what program offers fhgs?" and answers them - that's a of a marketing rep.

also i think a good marketing rep may think of ways to get the program known, will find good advertising opportunities, will write press releases that draw interest and will know where to send them. they may approach people representing programs that might benefit from knowing about your company.

but honestly, this can vary from company to company. there is no handbook describing exactly what the job entails, and people who feel their reps should automatically know should consider their business needs and figure out what they want. no one should have to guess what their job is, but some of us will at least be out there doing stuff even if there IS no real job description.

Lee, obviously you know that posting a couple threads a day is not being a marketing rep. although if a company hires someone who isn't sure what to do, that could easily happen.

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Originally Posted by RainGurl

if you're hiring a rep, that is someone who is out there solely to represent your business plan/vision, you should have a clear job description laid out for them when they start. A *good* supervisor lets the employee know exactly what is expected of them and provides clear and precise goals. If those expectations are clearly stated and the marketing rep is coming up short, it will be no surprise to either the rep or the supervisor that the situation isn't working.

I've seen a lot of people look to hire a lower-paid "rep" and expect them to play the role of the visionary. In theory, the rep should step into a company that has an established marketing plan. If you're looking for someone to create that plan, you're not looking for a rep, but a higher level manager or director.

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Well said. I laid out everything in advance with my marketing rep. and had them give me an estimate of what they would be able to accomplish with my site minimally, how long it would take, what investment I'd have to put in, how much time they'd work, weekly sales reports to keep on track, etc. etc.

This business is difficult and success depends on so many factors. That being said, the goals my last marketing reps set for themselves still weren't met 5 months later and I ended our working relationship. These are the first marketing reps I've ever hired.

My reps got Falcon as an advertiser on my site, or so they said. All advertisers are supposed to pay in advance, but my rep didn't request that for some reason. Falcon has never paid. Here I am three months later giving them front page free advertising on my site. I don't know if my rep was scamming me, or has even contacted Falcon regarding payment. My rep says he has contacted them and has given me excuse after excuse, for over 3 months now, as to why they are late paying their advertising bill.

My reps and I separated on good terms, I thought, and I was told "I will be getting you the list of webmasters we have been contacting on your behalf tomorrow, we are just compiling them for you now." That was on April 12th. I've been waiting patiently so I could write my contact at Falcon, after getting his email address. They still haven't contacted me about being paid by my advertiser, after excuse, followed by excuse the last three months.

I've been saving my money for IVF and thought I'd invest in marketing and make more money, instead I lost money every month to the tune of thousands of dollars now, have advertisers that don't pay, endless emails to sort out where things were. I've had to postpone the IVF now because I'm out all the money and still, after all this, they don't feel responsible enough to give me a list of my webmasters and get my money from the advertisers they brought on? I feel like I was led on the last 5 months, and after our working relationship ended, I was just thrown away like trash.

I'll be happy when I find a good marketing company that does what they say, meets their own goals, and helps make my company a profit. I'm easy to work with and just expect people to do what they say. If there's anyone interested let me know. :high:

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Originally Posted by Squirt

That being said, the goals my last marketing reps set for themselves still weren't met 5 months later and I ended our working relationship.

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Damn that kinda sucks, how much were you paying them to 'market' your sites out of interest?

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My rep says he has contacted them and has given me excuse after excuse, for over 3 months now, as to why they are late paying their advertising bill.

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Well i have to say that would be grounds for a collecton agency or lawsuit right there. If you are owed money, you should get it either from Falcon or fro your ex marketing firm $0.02

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They still haven't contacted me about being paid by my advertiser, after excuse, followed by excuse the last three months.

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See above :)

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I feel like I was led on the last 5 months, and after our working relationship ended, I was just thrown away like trash.

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Again that sucks, even if a working relation ends both sides should still be in contact with one another, especially from a marketing firms point of view. Just because business wasnt there up to the point your relationship with them ended, that doesnt mean it wont come in after it ends. It does sound like they were your 'buddies' as long as you kept paying them though.. Unfortunately there are many people in the industry like that and people only find out after they have spent a lot of money, may i ask if you got references from their previous clients before signing on with them?

Oh and who was the company out of interest id like to know so we can stay clear of them as im sure others on GWW would like to know who they are too.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience Squirt, on the bright side though, you just learnt a valuable lesson and im sure its something you wont let happen again :thumbsup:

Regards,

Lee

That really bites. Sorry to hear that.

What's IVF?

dzinerbear

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Originally Posted by Lee

Damn that kinda sucks, how much were you paying them to 'market' your sites out of interest?

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At first $2,000 a month, then after I didn't see results I re-negotiated to $1,500 a month... then after still little results I re-negotiated again to $1,000 a month. Mind you the whole time they never even came close to breaking even with their fee, not even at $1,000 a month.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Well i have to say that would be grounds for a collecton agency or lawsuit right there. If you are owed money, you should get it either from Falcon or fro your ex marketing firm $0.02

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Sue Falcon? Why? I thought they had a good reputation in our industry? I'm assuming it was the marketing company not being honest with me at this point, or being overwhelmed, and no fault of Falcons. Hopefully someone from Falcon will read this and get in contact with me.

I know better then to sue a marketing company for lack of results. There are many variables that play into the success of marketing. Yes they led me on, yes they don't follow through, yes they brought on advertisers that didn't pay in advance, or at all. I haven't lost enough to want to sue overseas.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Again that sucks, even if a working relation ends both sides should still be in contact with one another, especially from a marketing firms point of view. Just because business wasnt there up to the point your relationship with them ended, that doesnt mean it wont come in after it ends.

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Exactly. I was cool with everything. Business relationships end sometimes. No reason to have sour grapes. You're most likely going to work with those people again, or run into them in business somewhere so no reason burning bridges BUT when things end on a good note, and they STILL don't follow through and leave you in the dark with no contact list, advertisers still not paid, and a "their word" that those things will be taken care of, then it's almost like THEY are burning birdges and just don't care regardless. I dunno. Kind of like a big fuck you. What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Lee

It does sound like they were your 'buddies' as long as you kept paying them though.. Unfortunately there are many people in the industry like that and people only find out after they have spent a lot of money, may i ask if you got references from their previous clients before signing on with them?

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Yeah actually I did get references. I was asked right after we signed if I would be a reference for them as well. A show was coming up at the time and we had just signed. I said "No, not until I have experience with you first. I hope you understand." I thought that was kind of odd at the time, but now I can see why they wanted a reference without really working with me first.

At the time you had posted something here on GWW Lee about them, or maybe to me personally, I can't remember. Saying something bad about them.. but at the time there were posts on the boards from two different designers you didn't pay ( and you admitted to not paying ), and all the conflicts with you regarding the Phoenix forum and those other businesses, so I really couldn't guage how to take your comments, but I did keep them in mind.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Oh and who was the company out of interest id like to know so we can stay clear of them as im sure others on GWW would like to know who they are too.

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See above. You know who they are Lee :high: I'm not going to publicly smear a marketing company that's worked for me. It's entirely possible they are good people that got overwhelmed and didn't know what they were capable of handling. I'm really up in the air about my feelings regarding them at this point.

I've shared my experiences so others know the warning signs and how to choose the right company, or when to get out before things get worse. I don't want any marketing person who works for me in the future to think I'm going to smear them. I wont do it. Just like I don't smear sites I work with, or other companies I do business with. The only time I'd mention specific companies, or names, is if I was blantently ripped off, or lied to, which in 6 years of doing this business, hasn't happened.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience Squirt, on the bright side though, you just learnt a valuable lesson and im sure its something you wont let happen again :thumbsup:

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Yeah it was a bad experience, but I knew what I was doing. I knew not to give a referene without having first hand success with the company. I knew that when results weren't coming to lower the price for their services, and keep lowering the price. I knew that as things kept being put off I had to keep things in check. etc. etc.

It's unfortunate that after we've stopped doing business together, they keep all these loose ends open. Whenever you finish something, finish it, don't leave things open and undone with people you stop working with, it's just bad business.

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

That really bites. Sorry to hear that.

What's IVF?

dzinerbear

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In Vitro Fertilization.... the money I've lost was about half the money it costs to start making a baby with the doctors help :high: