In support of GWW

GWW has been a great place to hang out, learn new things and to actually do business. In my opinion, GWW is geared towards the working webmaster; folks that build galleries, free sites, avs sites and small paysites. Because this is the place that working webmasters hang out, the marketing types and the program owners have congregated here as well. Because of GWW, I have been referred to great programs that have enabled me to earn some good money.

Not only have I found great programs to promote but people have also been extremely generous with their knowledge. Moderators and members such as basschick, dzinerbear, bdbionic, chilihost, huskyhunks,scorpio, bec, jigg, donmike, jasun, chadknowslaw and many others have taught me a lot. Lee and Gary-Alan have also been very generous with their time and knowledge. One example; Lee helped my install a TGP script a showed me how to set up the template. Why did he do that when it had no direct benefit for him? I imagine it was because he felt I was a valuable community member and he appreciated my contribution.

I am not an affiliate program owner or a marketing person from an affiliate program. I pretty much do my business in a vacuum. Although I’ve learned a lot from the members of GWW, I don’t depend on anyone here for significant portions of my income. Because I am not beholden to anyone that posts here or elsewhere, I am often out-spoken. So I’m sure that I have a few enemies and the following paragraphs will probably make me a few more enemies.

Because of recent events, some of you are reconsidering your patronage of this forum. For those of you, I ask you where you will find a similar community with such a deep well of knowledge? Yes, I am aware of several other boards geared to the gay webmaster. But they currently don’t offer nearly the diverse resources that are offered here. I have visited these other forums many times but I have rarely felt the desire to respond to any threads. The reason? Well, the members seem to consist mainly of marketing people giving ’shout outs’ to other marketing people from the most recent industry show and making plans for the next show. I don’t go to the conventions (maybe someday) so these types of threads have no value for me. Maybe if they talked about something other than the wild parties and discussed new developments in the industry then I would feel compelled to post and/or attend the shows.

I missed the drama yesterday. It was a rare offline day for me and I’m glad I missed it. Otherwise, I probably would have burned a million bridges. A friend informed me of the drama and filled me in on the details. I read what remained on GWW and what was said on the other boards.

Do I think Jake and Holly provoked Lee? Yes, I think Jake was sent to the board to start a fire in the ‘Squirt’ thread and Holly fed the flames. Do I think this was a planned attack? Probably, there has been a lot of bad-blood because of past bannings and censoring. Do I think there is reason for the bad blood between the two parties? Yes, but I don’t think it concerns any of us and I wish they would keep their problems private. Do I think Lee acted inappropriately? Yes, he should have acted in a more diplomatic manner. Do I think we should give up on GWW because of this? No, I think we can move on and return to the way it was, but it may take time.

Friend and acquaintances, if you decide to leave, you will be missed. And I am willing to bet that you will miss this place too.

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

Although I’ve learned a lot from the members of GWW, I don’t depend on anyone here for significant portions of my income. Because I am not beholden to anyone that posts here or elsewhere, I am often out-spoken.

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I'm in the same position as you. I've made some great contacts here as well, and others have benefited greatly from my patronage of GWW, not from my posts on GWW but from my contacts and help in the real world, after meeting on GWW.

The value of GWW lies within all of us here, not GWW in and of itself. A community is only as good as its members, wherever we decide to communicate in an "open" forum.

I'm semi neutral regarding the negative aspects of GWW at this point. I don't know if something is going on personally with the owners, or what the real situation is.

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Originally Posted by Squirt

what the real situation is.

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Squirt,

The real situation is actually quite simple, we dont people causing shit on GWW for the sake of 'drama', thats not what we are about as a community.

Certain companies have been aware for several months that they arent welcomed here, by both Gary and Myself yet, they continually register and re-register in order to get 'banned' again and cause more controversy each time getting new members on their board.

I dont think Gary and I can really spell it out to those companies any simpler than we have done yet, they continually register on the community.

Has anyone noticed who the newest community member is out of interest?

Imean really, how many times will one company tell everyone they want no part of GWW yet, a day later, they get another of their lackeys to re-register.

The mind just boggles sometimes.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Lee

Squirt,

The real situation is actually quite simple, we dont people causing shit on GWW for the sake of 'drama', thats not what we are about as a community.

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Well the situation with GWW and those companies aside... I think some just have difficulty with what seems selected enforcement of rules here. You have to remember also Lee... that someone confronting a company about their practices, etc. is good for us.. it calls to task those companies and alerts our community to what's going on. Again.. I'm not talking about you or GWW, here.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's good for us to call people to task, and unfortunately that sometimes causes drama, but better for all to be informed instead of kept in the dark right?

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Originally Posted by Squirt

Well the situation with GWW and those companies aside... I think some just have difficulty with what seems selected enforcement of rules here. You have to remember also Lee... that someone confronting a company about their practices, etc. is good for us.. it calls to task those companies and alerts our community to what's going on. Again.. I'm not talking about you or GWW, here.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's good for us to call people to task, and unfortunately that sometimes causes drama, but better for all to be informed instead of kept in the dark right?

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Squirt,

I agree with you however, would you not think that it is simply common sense for those companies we have told numerous times that they arent welcomed here to stay away?

I mean, its not rocket science and im sure, if Gary or I told you that you werent welcomed here, you'd stop posting, wouldnt you?

I think the larger picture here is to realize why these companies keep re-registering, it couldnt be anything to do with each time they have 'drama' started they get new members on their boards could it?

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Lee

I mean, its not rocket science and im sure, if Gary or I told you that you werent welcomed here, you'd stop posting, wouldnt you?

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Probably not :high:

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Originally Posted by Lee

I think the larger picture here is to realize why these companies keep re-registering, it couldnt be anything to do with each time they have 'drama' started they get new members on their boards could it?

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I didn't even know they had boards. Maybe that's the reason.

I personally go through the trouble of posting news articles related to the Gay community, and our Gay porn businesses, because I care about our community and think we are stronger being informed and working together ( and I don't mean excluding straight people or companies ).

I think if I spoke with you or Gary, or met you in person, I'd be able to read you better and understand, but in text it's too difficult for me... I'm daft at communicating in text.. I admit it lol

Well, I ain't going anywhere.

I'll post on other boards, gay and straight..the good ones..the lame ones needn't be bothered with.

Xtr8guy, you really hit it on the head with that comment about some boards just being cluster-fucks for site owners and their marketing teams.. Sure, I can make friends to buy me drinks at shows at them, but the boards I post on are the ones I feel I can get and give help.

But GWW will always be the first board that welcomed me open arms with little to no knowledge and made me the self-important drunken, rowdy frat boy that I am.

It's also the only board that features not one but TWO pictures of my dink.

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Originally Posted by Jasun

It's also the only board that features not one but TWO pictures of my dink.

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Same here... I think :pimp:

That being said.. I think this would be a more professional environment.. and put members at ease.. if it were mandatory for all men to submit their dick pics upon approval of membership.. all those in favor say I :francais:

This whole situation is really sad. I have no idea why Jake felt the need to come into a thread and stir the pot with his freedom of speech comments. I mean why not just grab a stick and poke the big bear and see if he growls. And then, Holly pushing things further by mentioning "banned" words, which is a silly and childish concept in and of itself.

And Lee's post about Holly was, in my opinion, inexcuseable. I don't care if it's his board or not. I think he was wrong, he was an outrageous cunt, but he's still my friend.

I don't know Jake. I've had one dealing with him when he offered to review my site in his magazine. He seemed nice enough and I appreciated his help. I work on a regular basis with Holly. I like her and she's been a good sponsor and helped me whenever I asked. I like seeing her at conferences even if she never gets around to buying me that drink she promises. :)

There are posts on the other boards where people are delighting in the apparent demise of this board. It's like being at a book burning and watching people throw more books on the fire, cheering all the while. What's up with that?

We should all be ashamed of ourselves that we have allowed our community to disintegrate to this sickening level of pettiness. If I were new to this business and watching all of this, I'd sure be scratching my head about whether or not I wanted to get into this community, forget about buying ads on your boards or in your magazines or supporting your programs.

We all lose if this current climate continues. And forget the Republicans or the Christians coming after us, we're doing a mighty fine job ourselves of ripping one another apart and killing our market. And if this board closes, we all lose. There is no other board out there that compares to this at the moment. That's not to say there couldn't be. TripleX Gay is a good contender if they actually started posting more business related threads. But regardless, if GWW closes, this community gets split between however many boards, and it'll take a long time to make any of those other communities strong again.

I don't know what it is about Internet communities, but they are almost always like this. I guess it comes with the territory of putting a computer screen and a thousand miles between two people. If I don't see you, somehow you're not real. I don't have to deal with you face to face. I don't have to see how my words affect you. So I can say whatever I want.

When I first joined the Internet I joined an e-mail list for ABBA fans – I know, I'm lame ... I have 120 ABBA CDS, too, so I'm really lame. And those people would regularly break into a war because someone claimed Agnetha (the blonde) had the space between her front teeth fixed, this would anger Agentha fans who were a sensitive lot to begin with. Or someone would say that Frida (the brunette) had a bad perm in the "Mamma Mia" video, and Frida fans would lash back and say Agnetha's ass wasn't sexy like the Australian media said in 1976, but that it was actually "fat." These people would fight like this shit really mattered and people would be thrown off the board. Disgruntled banned people would start competing ABBA e-mail lists and the dissatisfied masses would climb on board, screaming, "Yeah, freedom." The original list owner would say, "Let them go, they'll be back. My ABBA list is the biggest and the best."

I arrived at GWW two years ago, probably a year or so after storming off the ABBA e-mail list in a big huff and telling the owner he was a big pooh-pooh head. (In my case it was different, he really was a big pooh pooh head.) I remember feeling GWW was a breath of fresh air. People helped one another and there was no sense of firece competition. Shit, xstr8guy and I have almost all of the same content and still we help one another with link trades, link list listings, with SEO efforts. If I'm not going to get the sale, I'd rather he get it. We met on this board.

What happened? Why did we let this happen?

Oh you can blame it on Lee, or Holly, or Cyberblahblah magazine. Or you can say he tried to put on a bigger party than my party. Or he's spamming my board members. Whatever. Blame whomever you want, but we've all played a part in this one. We've all allowed this to happen. We've all contributed to it. So look inside and ask yourself: What did I do to contribute to this? It takes two people to fight.

Lee, you and Gary have created an amazing board. I'm proud to think of this place as my online home. I love the community and I love a lot of the people here. I've learned so much and I appreciate all of that. But please, don't think for a minute that this community or this board in indestructible. I believe Microsoft thought the Internet was stupid, so they let Netscape take the lead in the browser market. Then Microsoft launched IE and Netscape said, "No, we won't stop charging for our browser. We have a great product and people want to buy it." Wrong. Where is Netscape now? IE took the lead and said fuck you, we'll create a browser that doesn't adher to standards because we ARE Microsoft. Now standard-compliant Firefox has emerged out of nowhere and IE didn't take them very seriously. Month after month, Firefox steals market share from IE.

I plan to stay here and help continue building this community, but I also tend to spend some time over at TripleX because a great many of the people I want to deal with have moved there. That's their choice.

I wish the people who would like to continue fighting would just stop. Go to your own boards and expend this energy building your own communities. There's room for everyone.

I sure wish we could get back to the kind of community that two years ago helped me build a new business when I was scared, poor and jobless. Isn't it amazing that you all helped me do that? It's wonderful that you all helped me create this wonderful thing called Universal Bear. My partner and I are so proud of it. Isnt' it sad that this same collective energy is now being used to tear each other down? Isn't it sad that this collective energy is capable of this? There are Universal Bear's on this board right now waiting for us to help them come into being, to nurture them, to coax them along. Isn't that what we should really be focused on?

Cheers,
Dzinerbear
Michael

i have been contacted by several people here about that entire squirt thread. it appears that someone - no one is sure who - thought the cyberblah board was where we should all head to from now on.

and it really made me wonder...

when that email went out a while back announcing the b*dfellows/cyberblah function, screaming GAY WEBMASTER BASH in the subject - but not actually claiming their function was called the gay webmaster bash - i just shook my head in wonderment. i don't know those people, and i'm sure some of them are quite nice, but i felt that was total bullshit - and not in any way legal.

now suddenly problems get stirred up and people want to go to the board of the same people who tried to make people believe that their party was the gay webmaster bash so sneakily. it makes me wonder if some part of those flames are not only being fanned, but whether part of that was orchestrated to get such a great and knowledgeable community of webmasters to move to their board.

consipiracy theory? maybe - i'm not set on it, but these are the same people who tried to get their own convention party to grow by making people think it was the gay webmaster bash.

i like most of the people here, and consider serveral to be friends. i'm glad i found this board. i hope the people who love drama for its own sake will eventually move elsewhere or will just calm down and not get so upset if they don't agree with what someone else says or does.

just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by basschick

i have been contacted by several people here about that entire squirt thread. it appears that someone - no one is sure who - thought the cyberblah board was where we should all head to from now on.

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I never got any emails like that how rude!

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Originally Posted by basschick

when that email went out a while back announcing the b*dfellows/cyberblah function, screaming GAY WEBMASTER BASH in the subject - but not actually claiming their function was called the gay webmaster bash - i just shook my head in wonderment. i don't know those people, and i'm sure some of them are quite nice, but i felt that was total bullshit - and not in any way legal.

now suddenly problems get stirred up and people want to go to the board of the same people who tried to make people believe that their party was the gay webmaster bash so sneakily. it makes me wonder if some part of those flames are not only being fanned, but whether part of that was orchestrated to get such a great and knowledgeable community of webmasters to move to their board.

consipiracy theory? maybe - i'm not set on it, but these are the same people who tried to get their own convention party to grow by making people think it was the gay webmaster bash.

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Didn't Lee end up cancelling his function there, or not being allowed to have his function, because those guys were right? That was my understanding. And I am in NO WAY stirring here... this is what I was told... and not by those people, I don't know any of them, nor have I done business with them.

It all seems so nitpicky and political.

Ya know I enjoy this board just as much as the next guy and appreciate the many valuable relationships I've made on here, both business and personal.

But I'm of the belief that a board's content and value comes from its members and not its administration, and the administration need respect the fact that their very product and service upon which their livelihood depends requires showing some respect to the members.

I think Lee loses site of that often.

And Lee... I think your perceptions are very warped if you think that people come here to stir up trouble in order to generate activity on their own boards and you have no part in that. You think people are coming here to pull your members away? I think you need to consider the possibilty that it's your own actions driving people away. These conspiracy theories about people trying to take you and GWW down are enabling you to completely ignore your own part in whatever ills might befall this site.

The drama you suggest they started up? Their posts would have gone entirely unnoticed had you not made a thread calling Holly a back-stabbing bitch and childishly attempting to scold both her and her coworkers.

The drama that came about when Be*dfellow and C*ybersocket were originally banned back in the day... do you not see your own hand in any of that? Do you really think you're such the victim here, fending off assaults from sinister people bent on your destruction? Or could it just be that on certain occasions you've abandoned the kind of objectivity conducive to owning a successful webmaster community and instead chosen to be childish and overreactive?

And there was no conspiracy to get the GayWebmasterBash parties cancelled or shot down. And those events didn't take place in Phoenix at the very least in part due to their organizers inability to reconcile their schedules with those of the forum organizers. Just as Lee's suggested he's going to do again in Florida with offsite and unsanctioned events not affiliated with Internext and snubbing the show that's bringing webmasters to Florida in the first place.

I work closely with Cy*bersocket and Be*dfellow. I've actively posted on the*gayboard.com and gay*webmasterchat.com and have no ill will towards U*GAS. And I've also advertised here on GWW, eagerly attended the gay webmaster bash Vegas events, even made it a point to quote and give credit to Lee in one of the first webmaster articles I ever wrote for C*ybersocket magazine and can't even count all the webmasters I've come across with whom I've shared the existence of this board and encouraged to come sign up and share themselves with this community. And I've had a blast with GA and Lee and CA in Floridas and Phxs and Vegases past.

And I'm not here to be petty or keep controversy from dying or try and provoke or insult, but what I've not seen you do at all, Lee, is accept responsibility for your own actions, offer any apologies or even explanations, or acknowledge how some of your actions have not only been undesireable and unhealthy for the board and its members, but how you might actually have a hand in whatever consequences this board might suffer.

I come here to be a participant on GWW. Not at the mercy of it.

Good points, BD.

Hello

I am new to this industry and the newest Account Executive at Cybers*cket. I had no idea I was banned from this board as an employee of this company. I have been informed by management that I am not able to post here. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Greetings:

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Originally Posted by JamesCSocket

Hello

I am new to this industry and the newest Account Executive at Cybers*cket. I had no idea I was banned from this board as an employee of this company. I have been informed by management that I am not able to post here. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

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Ok, come on........

You guys are getting asinine with this stuff now. It was cute the first 5 times, and watching Lee react like a 3 year old is always entertaining, but enough is enough already!

As someone that your company is currently trying to recruit as a sponsor, I can tell you this type of "promotion" REALLY doesn't turn me on to the idea of throwing money your way.

Grow up.

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Originally Posted by JamesCSocket

Hello
I am new to this industry and the newest Account Executive at Cybers*cket. I had no idea I was banned from this board as an employee of this company. I have been informed by management that I am not able to post here. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

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See, the above post epitomizes exactly what's wrong with the moderation of this board. James has done nothing wrong, yet he's banned by association.

The whole business of attempting to ban words such as c*ybersocket and be*dfellow and the*gayboard-dotcom and triplexgay.com is completely ridiculous for a board that is supposed to be a community resource.

Before my post was taken down (along with the entire thread, undoubtedly taken down because it made it obvious that everyone in the community EXCEPT the admin in question disagreed with his actions), I'd made the point that board admin/moderators have a special responsibility to the community they support. Yes, gww is a private forum, but it exists BECAUSE of the community that supports it. And if that community suffers from policies that apply to everyone but the board admins, or are applied inconsistently, it does an amazing job of alienating everyone.

I have been admin and/or moderator for a number of boards over the years (all non-adult), including one substantially larger in contributors and traffic than this one, and one with far more flames and contention than this one. Yet with all of those, there's never been a problem maintaining cohesiveness among the community, simply because all of the moderators realize that their role is to facilitate friendly interaction, limit conflict, and above all, calm, rather than inflame.

The moderators/admins of a well run board that seeks to develop a community around it know that the path to success is by exemplifying and modeling the behaviors they want their members to follow. When they fuck up, instead of simply deleting threads, they own up to their shortcomings and apoligize. When things get hot, they interject to calm things down and privately discuss things with the people contributing to the problems. Banning is an absolute last resort, after repeated warnings have failed. And banning for personal reasons is completely unacceptable.

Basically, if the GWW community collapses and everyone moves to another board, it will be because of the actions or lack thereof of the admins, not because there is any conspiracy or desire to take GWW down.

I think it's *possible* the community could still be salvaged, but only if there is a direct, open, honest "mea culpa", removal of all the banned words, attempts to right the wrongs that have been perpetrated, and long-term change in behavior by the management of the forum.

Otherwise, I think that people *will* vote with their feet and move to a forum where they don't have to worry about the politics of the owners of the forum.

Actually, JustMe and Lee and anyone else who might care, I can honestly tell you that James had no idea he was even banned from here. I even remember (our offices are right next door to eachother) James asking Morgan "Wait... was I not supposed to go to that site?"

James is a new employee of Cybers*ocket, hired after the CS bans back in the day. James isn't very active on the boards. Not even on the*gayboard.com. So unless someone he's talked to over the phone was gonna fill him in, how's he supposed to know. You see, they're collectively so NOT obsessing about GWW over at Cyber*socket that no one even bothered to tell the new guy he was banned from here.

I think what people, especially Lee, needs to realize is that Cy*bersocket isn't out to get GWW. Cy*bersocket doesn't obsess over GWW or how to get at Lee. In fact, the very fact that James registered for this board is proof of just how little time and energy Cyb*ersocket, as a company, spends on thinking about Lee and GWW.

Whereas Lee is convinced they're over there in the Cyber*socket office obsessing over ways to get at him, in actuality they're over there just doing their jobs and working and when Jake got banned the other day it was the first time GWW ever came up in months. James registered on this board because he'd heard it mentioned after Jake got banned so came to check it out.

There is no plot to create drama at Cy*bersocket. Quite the opposite, in fact. James' having registered here was a direct result of how they don't talk about GWW in their office, don't obsess over GWW, aren't out to get GWW, don't obsess over all these shenanigans, and aren't engaged in any kind of active conspiracy as Lee would suggest. They're going about their day, and I think Lee would be amazed at how little a part of their day he is.

regardless of how nice they may be, when that original announcement email went out, i emailed lee and said "i see you have sent your party announcement". i was sure it was his, as were other people i talked to.

i had always thought very highly of the two companies involved in that stunt (without knowing them personally) and before i heard any details about that letter - i KNOW they know that the gay webmaster bash was lee's - i lost a lot of respect for them.

i don't know them, and even if i did, friendship ties do not influence me very much in business. i've had good friends do a couple things in their webmastering that i thought was unscrupulous, and i didn't hesitate to tell them, or to NOT support them when it came out. doing something underhanded is STILL underhanded, whether i hang out with a person or not.

and that is regardless of the outcome. the intention is what i refer to.

no matter how much we write in these angry threads, no one has changed anyone's opinion - we're just hurting each others feelings or pissing each other off. no meeting of the minds is happening here for most of us - and i guess that's what makes it drama.

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Originally Posted by basschick

regardless of how nice they may be, when that original announcement email went out, i emailed lee and said "i see you have sent your party announcement". i was sure it was his, as were other people i talked to.

i had always thought very highly of the two companies involved in that stunt (without knowing them personally) and before i heard any details about that letter - i KNOW they know that the gay webmaster bash was lee's - i lost a lot of respect for them.

i don't know them, and even if i did, friendship ties do not influence me very much in business. i've had good friends do a couple things in their webmastering that i thought was unscrupulous, and i didn't hesitate to tell them, or to NOT support them when it came out. doing something underhanded is STILL underhanded, whether i hang out with a person or not.

and that is regardless of the outcome. the intention is what i refer to.

no matter how much we write in these angry threads, no one has changed anyone's opinion - we're just hurting each others feelings or pissing each other off. no meeting of the minds is happening here for most of us - and i guess that's what makes it drama.

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Patti it's quite clear that they called it GayWebmasterCash as a fuck you to Lee but only after being banned from GWW. They each said Fuck You *publicly* in a different way.

In all actuality it was PrideBucks that used Gay Webmaster Bash first before anyone else. January Internext 2004 we Hosted the Gay Webmaster Kick-Off Bash which was our first photoshoot party. This past Internext we changed the name to Q-Fest after GWW's announcement of Gay Webmaster Bash parties. Because we came up with a better name - Q-Fest - it wasn't a big deal.

So with the mutual fuck you's and who actually used the name first.... let's not go pointing fingers over that particular topic please.