How the world perceives gay people

[tombarr]

Funny thing happened on the way to a gay bar last night...

I am presently in Saigon, Vietnam, (Ho Chi Minh City) and staying in the downtown area which is relatively safe at most times of the day, as long as you avoid the typical street scams from taxis and cyclo drivers, and those wanting to sell you their sister for an evening of enjoyment....blah blah..

anyway I was going out last night for a drink around 10 pm and as I headed out the front door of my hotel, the concierge asked me where i was going.. I told him the address, and he advised me to take a cab. When i told him that I preferred to walk to the place (I secretly wanted to checkout the park that was enroute to this bar as I had heard it was very cruisy at night)
he said to me...."you have to be careful in Saigon. there are many dangerous people on the streets at night that will attack you." when i inquired as to what kind of dangerous people would attack me he said "well let's just say there are lots of homosexuals out there at night"

I told him that would be fine as I was going to a homosexual bar anyway...at which point he told me that there were no homosexuals allowed in Saigon and there were certainly no homosexual bars here.....

I shrugged it off and went to have a drink in the non existent homosexual bar...

and darn it, i did not get attacked once on the way!

[Marc]

yeah you've got to be careful in that part of the world. I think a month ago there was a story of an Australian guy who went to jail for 2 years for having homosexual sex.
Gay marriage or no gay marriage, we have it pretty good in the states and Canada, compared to some parts of the world.

[jIgG]

well sorry but anyone going to a park to get some is just asking for trouble

[tombarr]

oh come on guys you are missing the point. I had absolutely no intention of doing anything in the park or picking anyone up in the park but i was curious to see it what i had heard about gay guys cruising around the park with small suitcases offering massages was true..

the whole point of the post was the comment by the concierge, who incidently knew nothing of my wanting to check out the park, his warning was simply based upon his perception that homosexuals are dangerous people that attack strangers on the streets at night....and how his pereception of what gay people are...

it wasn't about having sex with anyone.

[Huskyhunks]

Good for you for sticking up to those uptight Vietnamese. I guess selling your ten year old daughter for the evening is par for the course but those homosexuals are all trouble

[robin]

Haha good one Tom -- reminds me of the stories my friends from Vietnam used to tell me about -- about how they viewed the world.

[EmporerEJ]

oh come on guys you are missing the point. I had absolutely no intention of doing anything in the park or picking anyone up in the park but i was curious to see it what i had heard about gay guys cruising around the park with small suitcases offering massages was true..

the whole point of the post was the comment by the concierge, who incidently knew nothing of my wanting to check out the park, his warning was simply based upon his perception that homosexuals are dangerous people that attack strangers on the streets at night....and how his pereception of what gay people are...

it wasn't about having sex with anyone.

Geez, I'm not gay and I understood that.
You know what they say about homosexuals, they just aren't really smart.
(No really, I heard that somewhere, I'm sure it must be right!)
:gossip: :goofy:

[Squirt]

Wow I've never been to Vietnam... I've never really wanted to go either. What is your motivation for going there?

Marc is right about us having it good in the Western world.

Here in Australia the old stereotypes are followed regarding homosexuals.. drag queens, hair dresser, etc. We are second class citizens here. Cannot adopt, never think of getting married, etc. etc. I think it comes from the old outback mentality.. I dunno maybe an Ozzie can speak on this. I do think it's so ironic that durring Gay pride here EVERYONE wants to goto the parades... but treat homosexuals like shit the rest of the year.. it's odd. Every society has its contradictions. Nobody is exempt.

[BDBionic]

Well, it's all about cultural relativism I suppose.

Say when I lived in Egypt. Homosexuals get prosecuted for simply being gay there. Not just persecuted. Prosecuted! . Charged with crimes and hauled off to jail. Women have very little rights within marriages. The government cracks down on gays and political dissidents and what not. And so you'd consider them to be quite the backward, oppressive country on those counts.


But I could walk the streets of any part of Cairo in the middle of the night, being an obvious American, and be safer than I ever would here in a US city. Crime was almost nonexistent. Burglary, theft and the like were damn near unheard of. Despite being less than fond about the US government's policies in the region and openly hostile towards those, Egyptians are unbelievably friendly towards Americans and Westerners on the whole. To the point that many Westerners, not used to such friendliness, would be uncomfortable or think it odd that people were being so friendly. I couldn't go anywhere without being invited in to peoples' homes for tea and conversation. Their hospitality is beyond what anyone in the west would ever imagine.

So... is Egypt really some backward society? I guess it all just depends on what you use to measure it by, but in many respects they're way more advanced and civilized than the US.

In many countries around the world - most, in fact - homosexuality isn't expressed openly. It's not witnessed. It's not observed. So how would you expect people to view homosexuals? Should the concierge at the hotel be an avid watch of the Ellen Degeneres show and Queer Eye to the point he could say "Hey! Gay people ain't that bad!". What's he supposed to think? What were our grandparents supposed to think when we came out to them? Should we have expected they'd abandon decades of life experience and perception and perspective the moment they found out we were gay? Or should we realistically expect it to take a lil while for them to get used to it, if ever? Homosexuality isn't openly expressed in Vietnam because it's taboo and misunderstood, which in turn leads to more misunderstanding. But it wasn't the concierge's fault.

Cultural relativism.

[Squirt]

Should we have expected they'd abandon decades of life experience and perception and perspective the moment they found out we were gay? Or should we realistically expect it to take a lil while for them to get used to it, if ever? Homosexuality isn't openly expressed in Vietnam because it's taboo and misunderstood, which in turn leads to more misunderstanding. But it wasn't the concierge's fault.

Cultural relativism.

EXACTLY ... culture shock is a big thing for me too. No matter where I travel I'm always in aaaahhhh of the differences in cultures.. from Fijian, to Philippine, Australian to American.. etc. etc.

One thing's for certain.. no matter what culture you're in... being Gay will be accepted if you have enough money, power & influence. :whip:

[tombarr]

What is your motivation for going there?

We are cataloging gay places in asia in an effort to promote gay tourism to these countries in our website gayrice.com. We are about to launch a new section called "Gay Places" that lists by country, city, region, area, all types of gay or gay friendly businesses by genre in cities that are and/or cater to the gay asian community and those that like to be a part of it.

What's he supposed to think? ...... Should we have expected they'd abandon decades of life experience and perception and perspective the moment they found out we were gay? Or should we realistically expect it to take a lil while for them to get used to it, if ever? Homosexuality isn't openly expressed in Vietnam because it's taboo and misunderstood, which in turn leads to more misunderstanding.

well, he certainly did not warn about the female hookers along the way that literally grabbed my arm and were hard pressed to take no for an answer as to the offer of sex for money, and he certainly did not warn of the people on motorcycles that are known to swoop in on pedestrians in that area and, working in pairs, rob them.... or in some reported cases force them to go somewhere with them, where they are beaten and robbed.... no the Imminent danger was HOMOSEXUALS, who, judging by his presentation of that as the lurking danger at night in Saigon, are obvioulsy much more dangerous than muggers, or very agressive female prostitutes and their pimps......

But it wasn't the concierge's fault

sure he was trained by a society to feel this way based upon misconceptions, misperceptions, lack of visibility....but this is a country where they only allow very limited gay bars and they are monitored and raided almost nightly by police, and those that are open are only open for 2 to 2.5 hours once a week. Any other bars that "allow" gay people have to be mixed to escape the heavy hand of "big brother".

What did I expect of the concierge? I expected tollerance....he works after all in a 4 star hotel, one that is frequented primarily by westerners.... I expected cultural sensitivity on his part... I expected him to be exposed to more than say the average dweller that does not often come into contact with other cultures....As it turns out, this hotel sits right across one of the few places where a predominantly gay party is held once a month and he sees them as many gay people use the restaurant in the hotel on the nights of these parties.... He has been exposed to gay people many times in the course of his job.... I suggest it was his own prejudices and stereotypes that guided his comments to me..

The original post was not to point the finger and fault the concierge...he certainly is a product of his society, the government's official positions on homosexuality, and his own cultivated stereotypes and prejudices, but he was the medium through which I experienced this situation. The point was that the visit was a reality check on the perception of gay people in different spots in the world, and how, even though we bitch about our rights in the USA, we certainly are leaps and bounds ahead of many countries, (yet still behind others) in the areas of our perceptions and rights accorded to the gay and lesbian community.

[Fetishlady]

the concierge thought homosexuals are dangerous..

[BDBionic]

I dunno what's worse. Intolerant locals...

... or higher-than-thou tourists who judge the locals according to the standards they brought with 'em on the plane.

Yeah he's the concierge at a 4-star hotel. Which is why he felt he was providing a service in notifying you of what he perceived to be something worth knowing about. It's obviously a sensitive and, again, taboo issue there yet he diregarded the potential awkardness of it all to give you information he felt would be useful to you.

Maybe the Westerners staying at a hotel in a foreign country should be a little more culturally sensitive to that country, rather than get offended when the people that work there aren't sensitive to cultures many thousands of miles away.

I don't doubt or disagree with you that it's unfortunate what homosexuals in many countries must go through and the intolerance that is by far the norm on this planet, and I also agree with ya that we do have it pretty good here in the West, relative to other parts of the world especially. I've often thought of what it would have been like to be gay and born in to a village in goodness-knows-where and thanked my lucky stars that wasn't the case.

But what I personally feel is the point it turned in to an unpleasant experience for you was when you subjected homegrown expectations upon a man from a different culture, society and country. In his own culture, society and country, no less. Where's the tolerance for his different perspective and experience? Or those of an entirely different country, no less?

[tombarr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDBionic
I dunno what's worse. Intolerant locals...

... or higher-than-thou tourists who judge the locals according to the standards they brought with 'em on the plane.



Less than a week ago, you chastised me on this board for comments and preconceptions about someone i knew little about based solely on my perception of what he said in his posts...and you were right...i was wrong.
Now here you are calling me a "higher than thou tourist who judges locals according to standards they brought with 'em on the plane" and an "intollerant local". You know NOTHING of my travel habits sir, you know NOTHING of the way i handled myself with this concierge. You are out of line, and this comment is not only inappropriate, it is as judgmental of me as you are claiming I was of this concierge and the Vietnamese people....how dare you and shame on you for these comments based upon things you know nothing about.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbionic
Yeah he's the concierge at a 4-star hotel. Which is why he felt he was providing a service in notifying you of what he perceived to be something worth knowing about. It's obviously a sensitive and, again, taboo issue there yet he diregarded the potential awkardness of it all to give you information he felt would be useful to you.



Which I, being very seasoned in travel, realized and the thing you don't know is my response to him upon receiving the warning was "thank you for your concern, I think I will be safe if i walk, have a good night".. Wow, very judgemental there i would think!


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbionic
Maybe the Westerners staying at a hotel in a foreign country should be a little more culturally sensitive to that country, rather than get offended when the people that work there aren't sensitive to cultures many thousands of miles away.



I happen to be a very cultuarlly sensitive person and bend over backwards to appreciate, understand and conform my actions to the culture and society I am in. Thank you for your very inaccurate assumptions that I am not. You could not be more wrong.

My comments relate to the experience, the comment, the thought, the meaning behind the comment, and yes i know exactly what it is born of and why it was said, and i know exactly the motivation of the concierge was for my benefit, however it does not mitigate the reality that the comment was predjudiced against gay people. Whether it is of government teaching, family background, cultural non acceptance, or other issues, it still was a predjudicial comment, and while i know it was not personal, it still was a situation i thought worth sharing to others to point out that all is not as rosy in the world as we see it in the gay community in western countries.

My comments had absolutely NOTHING to do with judging anyone. I did not berate him for his job, I did not call him names, I did not belittle the people of Vietnam, I simply related an experience of gay predjudice, that i experienced on a gay board, to a gay forum, to gay readers, for the purpose of pointing out that there are other predjudicial views to our lifestyle.

I further point out that i said in the subject of my original post, " a funny thing happened on the way to a gay bar" which first of all does not indicate any displeasure, or anger, or unpleasantry with the situation at all. I did not say "those stupid people" or "some dumb concierge" or "an ignorant concierge said to me" ... the post was about the experience, the words, the perception, the discrimination. And whether it is born of culture, or family, or government, or education, it is still discrimination by it's utterance and to shed light on it and discuss it on this board in no way is acting "higher than thou" toward these people.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbionic
But what I personally feel is the point it turned in to an unpleasant experience for you was when you subjected homegrown expectations upon a man from a different culture, society and country. In his own culture, society and country, no less.



I did not subject him to anything, i did not lecture him on what he should or should not say. I did not tell him this was unacceptable but I probably should have. I did not get angry with him. I did not complain to his superiors, I thanked him and walked away. I accepted this as part of his culture, as part of his way of life, his viewpoint... but discussing it here, on this board, this forum, one that is supposed to be about gay issues, promoting gay acceptance, is in NO WAY being culturally insensitive, nor trying to subject my views on another culture. They were posted for sharing to a group that is gay, for gay rights, for gay acceptance, and certainly for ending gay discrimination around the world simply based upon our sexual preference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbionic
Where's the tolerance for his different perspective and experience? Or those of an entirely different country, no less?



Gosh, using this logic we should never discuss any gay discrimination we experience for fear we might be perceived as subjecting others to our culture and being culturally insensitive. Using your logic all is rosy in the world and we should just accept any discriminations we experience because it's their culture? Using their logic we should stop shedding light on experiences of gay discrimination if they happen in remote parts of the world and just accept that as the way it is..... using your logic we shoudl probably go back to the drag queens in NYC 30 years ago on Christopher street and ask them where is the tolerance for the different perspective and experience of the police, the government, in that city. We should chastise them for subjecting their culture on the city of New York and being offended that they were raided when they tried to go to places that catered to their lifestyle. Using your logic we should forget about championing gay rights, acceptance and an end to discrimination around the world, we should just accept it as part of their culture, get over it and move on.

If you go to a small town in the USA, a farming community, and calls you a faggot, or makes off handed comments about gay people to you, do you stand up and say, I am sorry, that is not acceptable? Or do you just accept that it is part of their culture in that little town, and that you should not subject "homegrown expectations upon a man from a different culture, society......In his own culture, society" and town, no less?

[Squirt]

Less than a week ago, you chastised me on this board for comments and preconceptions about someone i knew little about based solely on my perception of what he said in his posts...and you were right...i was wrong.
Now here you are calling me a "higher than thou tourist who judges locals according to standards they brought with 'em on the plane" and an "intollerant local". You know NOTHING of my travel habits sir, you know NOTHING of the way i handled myself with this concierge. You are out of line, and this comment is not only inappropriate, it is as judgmental of me as you are claiming I was of this concierge and the Vietnamese people....how dare you and shame on you for these comments based upon things you know nothing about.

Tom seriously don't sweat BDBionic. He's said absolute trash to me before as well. I think he has issues with older gay men ( I'm 33 ) or others who travel and discuss their experiences. I don't know him professionally at all but I know he attacks here for absolutely no real reason other then to A) be mean or B) lack of self control or C) for amusement when he's bored. Either way his comments aren't business related.. they're personal attacks.

His response to your post will be either A) You misinterpreted what he said or B) A mean demeaning rant C) No response at all or D) something not listed just to prove this post wrong. Either way it's not worth the negative energy IMHO :thumbsup:

The last thing we need right now is people in our community attacking eachother.