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Thread: Shoot First - Ask Questions Later

  1. #1
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    Check It Out Shoot First - Ask Questions Later

    TALLAHASSEE -- Warning that Florida streets have the potential to morph into the O.K. Corral, gun-control advocates will launch an international campaign to alert travelers about a new state law that allows people to use deadly force in self-defense.

    On Saturday it will become legal to use force on an attacker without first trying to escape the confrontation.

    Supporters say the measure, which they dub the "Stand Your Ground" law, allows residents to protect themselves by meeting force with force.

    Opponents, who call it the "Shoot First Law," warn it could hand itchy trigger fingers a license to kill.

    "It's a particular risk faced by travelers coming to Florida for a vacation because they have no idea it's going to be the law of the land," said Peter Hamm, communications director of the Washington, D.C.-based Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "If they get into a road rage argument, the other person may feel he has the right to use deadly force."

    In a flier the group plans to pass out at Miami International Airport and possibly Orlando International Airport, tourists will be admonished to take precautions that include: "Do not argue unnecessarily with local people." Newspapers ads, billboards and the Internet will also be used to spread the word.

    Championed by the National Rifle Association, the law makes it legal for someone to use deadly force against anyone who unlawfully or forcefully enters their home or car -- even if they are not being attacked.

    Marion Hammer, president of Unified Sportsmen of Florida and a former NRA president, said the fearmongers are off-base. She said the new law seals the existing right of residents to protect their homes by shooting intruders, a concept known as the Castle Doctrine that dates back to the 1400s. But it extends that right to public places if people feel threatened with death or bodily harm.

    The law was needed, she contends, because Florida prosecutors and courts have imposed a duty to retreat on law-abiding people who are attacked by criminals.

    "When they take away your basic rights and freedoms, every once in a while you have to take it back. No law-abiding citizen should be forced to retreat from an attacker ... in their homes or any place they have a legal right to be," Hammer said.

    "Under existing law, you have a duty to try to run and maybe get chased down and beaten to death," she added. "Now, if you have a knife, firearm or pepper spray, you can use force to protect yourself."

    Willie Meggs, who was president of the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association when the Legislature considered the bill this spring, said it solves a problem that doesn't exist.

    "We may not have any problems with it and if we don't, that's fine," said Meggs, the state attorney for Leon County. "But what I worry about, and I don't know if it will come to fruition, is that people who should be prosecuted will have a defense for using force when they didn't need to."

    In signing the bill into law last spring, Gov. Jeb Bush defended the measure, saying it "defies common sense" to force people to retreat when they're in a life-threatening situation.

    The Brady Campaign, established by former presidential spokesman Jim Brady and his wife Sarah, plans to aggressively advertise on the Internet to warn out-of-state tourists. Hamm said that as of Wednesday when the phrase "Florida Vacation" is typed onto some search engines a link to www.shootfirstlaw.org will pop up.

    The group is also running ads in the travel sections of the Boston Globe, Detroit Free Press, Chicago Tribune and likely some London newspapers beginning Sunday. They will also be putting up billboards in places where they can be easily seen by tourists and passing out airport fliers in English and Spanish.

    "The biggest myth in Florida is [that] this is about protecting people who use legitimate self-defense," Hamm said. "This law ... sends a message to people who are potentially unstable and have an itchy trigger finger that as long as they can make a reasonable case they were in fear, they can use deadly force against somebody."

    The measure had overwhelming support in the Legislature, where it passed the Senate in a 39-0 vote and the House, 94-20.

    "We're the wild, wild West and I think criminals will abuse it," said Rep. Eleanor Sobel, D-Hollywood, one of the few who voted against the measure. "There will be more street fights ... especially if there is a criminal element in a certain area, [and] they won't hesitate to use their guns."

    Nonsense, said Hammer, saying the law will now do what most people thought it already did.

    "Most people know you can't chase somebody down the street and shoot them," she said.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

    To some extent, i actually think this law i okay however, on the other hand, i can certainly see how it has the huge potential to be abused also.

    I remember a few years ago there was this farmer in the UK who shot some kid after he broke in to the farmers house, from what i recall, the farmer got charged with either manslaughter or murder and ended up spending time in prison for defending his property.

    With things the way they are atm politically in the U.S do you think this law should have been passed or, is this going to cause us more problems than solutions?

    Regards,

    Lee


  2. #2
    JustMe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    the law makes it legal for someone to use deadly force against anyone who unlawfully or forcefully enters their home or car -- even if they are not being attacked.
    As someone that lives in Florida, let me just say:

    I'm sorry, but if someone "forcefully enters my home or car", they ARE, in my definition, attacking me.

    Screw having to run out of your own house. If someone climbs through my window, or knocks down my door, their ass is getting shot, law or no law.

    I'm not going try "escape" my own home, or attempt to have a conversation to see what the intentions of this person that's just knocked down my door or climbed through my window are.


  3. #3
    chick with a bass basschick's Avatar
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    wow - a return to the wild west. how manly.

    if you can see the person in your home is unarmed, as they very often are, seems to me that shooting them in the leg would work just as well as killing them for your purposes. if you're a good enough shot to kill, you're a good enough shot not to. we have a lot of breakins in this area by a guy who isn't killing anyone, and has no weapon. he's a shithead for breaking in - but i seriously doubt he deserves to die.

    accidents happen, and someday someone will end up shooting their sister in law when their wife forgets to tell him she's coming over to pick up the china.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by basschick
    accidents happen, and someday someone will end up shooting their sister in law when their wife forgets to tell him she's coming over to pick up the china.
    Right, but what about taking it to the other extreme...

    Someone invites someone else over for a visit, they give them their neighbors address instead of their own, knowing that the neighbor has a gun. The neighbot then shoots the person who walks in, not knowing who it is.

    Now the person who invited the victim to their neighbors house, in my eyes, pretty much just committed murder.

    Its going to be an interesting thing to see how such cases are managed through the legal system.

    Regards,

    Lee


  5. #5
    chick with a bass basschick's Avatar
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    interesting? i think it sucks! those people like the gas man or the apartment manager who get shot will be dead, and no amount of saying "oh, my god! i thought he was a burglar" will bring them back.


  6. #6
    Happysucks
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    Living in Florida, I can honestly say this law only assist the following:

    Security Threat Groups In Florida (Just the deadly one’s)
    10th Street Thugs Miami 112 Avenue Boys Miami 12 Nation Street Gang Miami 18th Street Gang Multiple Cities/Counties 205th Street Players Miami 2-1 Jacksonville 22 Ave. Players Dade 23rd Street Boys Ft. Pierce 25 Street Folk St. Petersburg 299 Street Boys Miami 29th Street Players Miami 2nd Street Fellows Miami 35th Street Players Miami 39th Ave North Boys Clearwater 3-D Kings Sunrise 4 Avenue Players Leon 56 Ave Players Miami 6 Street Mob Broward 69 Folk Pensacola 773 Boys Quincy 8 Ball Posse Sarasota 98 Posse Ft. Pierce American Nazi Party Multiple Cities/Counties Apopka Boys Apopka Asian Bloods Multiple Cities/Counties Army of Light Hendry CI Aryan Brotherhood Prisons Aryan Nations Multiple Cities/Counties Asian Gangsters Pinellas Baby Demons Miami B-Boys Pinellas City Bad Boys Hillsborough Basin Street Rat Pack Tallahassee Bellaire Boys Clearwater Black Angels Wimauma Black Gangster Disciples Multiple Cities/Counties Black Guerilla Family Multiple Cities/Counties Black Hawks Hillsborough Black United Soldiers Tallahassee Blackheart Miami Bloods Multiple Cities/Counties Blue Arrows West Palm Beach Broadview Mob Broward Carol City Lynch Mob Carol City Carver Shores Boys Orlando City Of Chaires Posse Tallahassee Cloud Nine Ft. Lauderdale Criminal Minded Posse Lake Worth Crips Multiple Cities/Counties Crypt Disciples Pensacola Danger Zone Palatka Davie Boys Broward Death Squad Pompano Beach Devil Boys Tampa Dixie Court Players Okeechobee Dixie Playboys Ft. Lauderdale Dog Pound Gangsters Polataka Dogg Pound Miami Dover Locos Plant City Down By Law Palm Beach Du Rag Posse Palm Beach Eastside Bradenton Eastside Locos Manatee Eastside Posse Orlando Eau Gallie Posse Eau Gallie Ebony Kings Jacksonville El Rukn Multiple Cities/Counties Ex-Legion Broward Familia Multiple Cities/Counties Five Percenters Multiple Cities/Counties Flip Side Posse FL State Prison Flipside Lake Wales Folk Disciples-Chap 6 Orlando Folk Nation Multiple Cities/Counties Fort Pierce Boyz Fort Pierce Fountain Head Posse Melbourne Fourth World Mafia Pompano Beach G.O.D.S. MG Multiple Cities/Counties Gang Colors Miami Gang Of 14 Jacksonville Gangster Disciples Multiple Cities/Counties Gaylords Coral Springs Ghost Gangster Disciples Lake County Grand Theft Auto Hillsborough Grateful Dead MG Multiple Cities/Counties Hell's Angels Multiple Cities/Counties Hollywood Criminals Hollywood Holton St. Boys Leon Imperial Gangsters Multiple Cities/Counties Imperial GD Multiple Cities/Counties Inner Circle Assassins Pompano Beach Insane Cobras Okaloosa CI Insane Gangster Disciples Multiple Cities/Counties Int. Gangster Association Orlando International Posse Multiple Cities/Counties Jackson Height Posse Tampa Jacksonville City Boys Jacksonville Jamaican Posse South Florida Jamestown Project Gang St. Petersburg Joe Louis Street Posse Tallahassee Junkyard Jits Ft. Pierce King Garden Boys Miami Ku Klux Klan Multiple Cities/Counties La Cruz Hollywood La Familia Tampa La Raza South Florida La Vida Sunrise Lake Bradford Boys Leon Latino Bad Boys Miami Latin Counts Multiple Cities/Counties Latin Disciples Multiple Cities/Counties Latin Eagles Multiple Cities/Counties Latin Folk Miami Latin Force Multiple Cities/Counties Latin Gangster Disciples Multiple Cities/Counties Latin Kings Multiple Cities/Counties Latin Thug Posse Palm Beach Legion Hollywood Legion of Doom Miami Longwood Lost Boys Longwood Lynch Mob Palm Beach Mafia Boys Miami Maniac GD Miami Maniac Latin Disciples Multiple Cities/Counties Miami Boyz Miami Mickey Cobras Lee County Money Kings Ft. Myers Most Powerful Nation Davie MS 13 Multiple Cities/Counties N.S.W.W.P. Multiple Cities/Counties Nasty Boys Titusville Neta Orlando Niggers From Lackawanna Jacksonville Night Hawks Jacksonville Northside Nation Broward/Miami Northside White Boyz Ft. Myers Opa Locka Boys Opa Locka Outlaws Multiple Cities/Counties P Stone Nation Multiple Cities/Counties Pagans Multiple Cities/Counties Parson's Gang West Palm Beach P-Dogs Tampa Peckerwoods Jacksonville People In Control Tampa People Nation Multiple Cities/Counties Pine Manor Posse Ft. Myers Pompano Bloopers Pompano Pompano Boys Tampa Port Of Tampa Gang Tampa Project Boys Quincy Quincy Jaw Jackers Quincy Red Revolutionary Militia Washington CI Righteous Gangster Disciples Tampa Rockbrook Boys Tallahassee Rollin 20's Crips Panama City, Tallahassee Romans Of Fowler Ave Tampa Rude Boys Ft. Pierce Second Power Kendall Shower Posse Jacksonville Side by Side Boys Miami Simon City Royals Multiple Cities/Counties Skidrow Pompano Beach Skie Row Pompano Skinhead (Racist) Multiple Cities/Counties Skullheads Miami Solidos Multiple Cities/Counties Southside Neighborhood Gp Tallahassee Spanish Cobras Miami Spanish Gangsters Multiple Cities/Counties Spanish Law Boyton Beach Spanish Lords Multiple Cities/Counties Stoners Lake Wales Street Action Posse Miami Sureno 13 Multiple Cities/Counties Sur XIII Multiple Cities/Counties T.N.S. Dade Tampa Boyz Tampa Tampa Posse Tampa T-Dogs Titusville Terror Of Dome Immokalee Texas Syndicate Prison The Konneticut Kids Miami The Unforgiven Prison Thug Life Pensacola Thunder Cats Palm Beach Town & Country Villains Tampa Tre Duce Folk Pensacola Tres D Tampa Truman Arms Posse Pensacola Twin Colts Okeechobee Unforgiven Multiple Cities/Counties United Kings Multiple Cities/Counties Us Niggers Love Violence Ft. Lauderdale Vados Locos Miami Venice Shoreline Crips Lee County Vice Lords Multiple Cities/Counties Victory Park Zoe Pound Miami VIP Tampa W/B-Boys Clearwater Warlocks MG Multiple Cities/Counties West Side Crips Lake Wales Westside Boys Hialeah Westside Duce Tampa Westside Folk Disciples Lee County Westside Gangsters Deerfield Westside Locos Bradenton Westside Mafia Jacksonville White Aryan Resistance Multiple Cities/Counties White Fence Coral Springs White Pride Kissimmee Worldwide Folk Multiple Cities/Counties Y.L.O. Dade Young Bloods Ft. Walton Beach Young Folk Hillsborough Young Gun Tallahassee Young Riders Webster Zoe Pound Miami Zoo ****** Multiple Cities/Counties Zulus Multiple Cities/Counties

    Racial Supremacy and Neo-Nazi Groups
    1. American Nazi Party
    2. Aryan Nations
    3. The Holy Order or The Order (Bruders Scheweigen)
    4. The Silent Brotherhood
    5. White Aryan Resistance
    6. Church of the Creator
    7. Ku Klux Klan (many factions)
    8. National Socialist White Peoples' Party
    9. National Socialist White Workers' Party (NSWWP)
    10. United White Peoples' Party
    11. The New Order
    12. National Democratic Front
    13. Skinheads
    14. Aryan Youth Movement

    List gathered from: http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/gangs/fl.html


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happysucks
    Living in Florida, I can honestly say this law only assist the following
    Good point! Real good point.. thugs and gangsters are usually the only ones walking around with guns anyway.

    This law addresses the symptom, not the problem. If people would focus more on WHY people steal, join gangs, etc. maybe we could get somewhere.

    These kinds of issues in our society correlate to someone being stabbed with a knife, and the person keeps putting on band aids and taking care of the wounds, instead of stopping the person from stabbing them in the first place.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe
    As someone that lives in Florida, let me just say:

    I'm sorry, but if someone "forcefully enters my home or car", they ARE, in my definition, attacking me.

    Screw having to run out of your own house. If someone climbs through my window, or knocks down my door, their ass is getting shot, law or no law.

    I'm not going try "escape" my own home, or attempt to have a conversation to see what the intentions of this person that's just knocked down my door or climbed through my window are.
    If you had a gun when that model attacked you guys in the car, and this law was in effect, would you have shot him?


  9. #9
    desslock
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    To some extent, i actually think this law i okay however, on the other hand, i can certainly see how it has the huge potential to be abused also.
    ALL freedoms have the potential to be abused. Would you elimate the free press just because it could be abused by certain nefarious publishers? You know, some people go and spam reluctant recipients with porn email.... that's an abuse. Should free speech in our arena be therefore restricted or regulated?

    Now we can't pick and choose the Bill of Rights amendments we happen to like and dislike. They all come presented together, kinda of like a Blue Plate Special, or the Democrat or Republican party. We have the right to bear arms. I remember when Texas passed its law that allows concealed firearms in the 1990s, and its detractors predicted dangerous Wild West bloody streets.

    Florida allows concealed firearms too. And I think (although I don't have the data) that Texas and Florida have lower violent murder rates compared to many other places with higher gun regulation - like say Washington DC and New York.... or New Orleans.

    Steve


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by desslock
    ALL freedoms have the potential to be abused.
    Sorry but i dont recall having read anywhere about the freedom to shoot somebody in your own home or was that in the part of the constitution i didnt read? Or perhaps this new law was taken from the segment of the bible that says it is okay to stone someone to death, they just updated it to fit in with todays society.

    This is nothing to do with the right to bare arms or right to free speech, this is about being able to kill someone and get away with it, legally.

    There are some MAJOR differences between the freedom of speech and the ability to kill someone, dont you think?

    Regards,

    Lee


  11. #11
    desslock
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Sorry but i dont recall having read anywhere about the freedom to shoot somebody in your own home or was that in the part of the constitution i didnt read?
    So actually this probably means that I shot my mouth off too soon, and the law really revolves around what's allowed in the criminal code, and this isn't a "right to bear arms" thing.

    But still there are implications of all the rights in the Constitution. You will not see the word privacy in the Bill of Rights but that doesn't mean it is not implied. Should the right to free speech just protect written speech, and not images of gay sexual acts? If you have the right to bear arms, then why not accept as a consequence that people can protect themselves with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    This is nothing to do with the right to bare arms or right to free speech, this is about being able to kill someone and get away with it, legally.
    I did Google news research, and apparently the law says:

    The Florida measure says any person "has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm.

    Ok, so you'll have to prove in court that you were in jeopardy at that moment. How does that allow a person to get away with killing someone wrongly?

    If you live in a civil, free society I don't have a problem with enjoying liberties such as self defense with a weapon.

    Steve


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by desslock
    If you live in a civil, free society I don't have a problem with enjoying liberties such as self defense with a weapon.
    I don't have a problem with defending myself and my family either. I think if I have a gun in my house, or car, and someone attacks me in my car, or home, I should be able to defend myself. My preferred method of self defense is a wooden hatchet I bought in Fiji made of the strongest wood I've ever encountered... it's the coolest thing. Using this hatchet will also allow me to get closer to my attacker so they can hear what I have to say before they've been beaten unconscious.

    But AGAIN, why don't we pass laws that address the real problem, not the symptoms of the problem?

    Why don't we have laws stating children under age found out at night alone, or in gangs, will have their parents punished for contributing to the delinquency of a minor? Why don't we have laws for mandatory counseling after the breakup of a marriage for the children and parents? Why don't we have laws for mandatory child support that will actually support a child, and if it's not paid, mandatory community service for the parent and the child is still paid the support money? If we have to pass laws, at least make sure they count and address these real problems.

    I know I know.. it's too difficult to address the real problems of children growing up with a grudge feeling they deserve something enough to steal it, or feeling the only way to escape their emotional pain is to do drugs, or the only way to feel they belong is to be part of a gang. I know it's to hard to make parents more responsible for the human beings they bring into the world.

    I agree with this law. I support it. But people should feel empowered by being part of a community, helping others, etc. not by a law that gives you permission to defend yourself.


  13. #13
    Today the USA, tommorrow the World collegeboyslive's Avatar
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    I think i would only shoot as a last resort. however if I do I will be darn sure to make sure they are DEAD. that way there is only 1 side of the story. yours
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