Ok... this tripped my anger button

[Hamilton Steele]

I am told that often I am not very good at being politically correct or clearly communicating my position in a post.

Therefore, let me first start by saying, "NO! I have not converted to being an animal rights activist." I continue to live by a hunter's code.

If a hunter's ethics are offensive to some of you. Then I extend my sincere apologies and we can agree to disagree.

Having stated this:

I have never been in favour of any creature, big or small needlessly suffering. As such, I ask that if you are moved by this, you petition the French goverment to stop this practice. Sending a letter of complaint doesn't take that much time.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005450117,00.html

And for the record, I don't know of anyone that hunts that would agree with this barbaric process.

If you do make the effort to write a letter may want to toss in the fact that in France it is part of their cuisine procedures to force feed geese until their livers burst. In order to "enhance the flavour" of the liver that is used in their world famous pates.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

Well far be it from he to criticize the manner in which The Sun reports a story (hehe) but that article left out the fact that:

- What's being reported in that story, i.e. using live dogs and cats as bait, is illegal. That article makes it sound like it's something the French government approves of and condones and that's not the case.

- Other papers reporting the story point out that these are mostly stray dogs and cats being used for this. Now I love dogs and cats just as much as the next person, but in some parts of the world stray dogs and cats might as well be rats. Nuisances, not cuddly housepets.

- Geese have nothing to do with it.


Yeah it's a sick and twisted thing but I don't think it does any good to make it seem like the French have all decided to sit back, chill, and guffaw merrily while it happens, thumbing their noses at anyone that takes offense. I mean maybe they're not rioting in protest against it (ok bad taste, I admit) but what should one expect em to do? Assign armed guards to every stray dog and cat on the island?

Speakin' of riots, on the scale of national priorities and issues of pressing concern to the people of France maintenant, stray dog shark bait might not be right up there at le very top.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...dog_shark.html

another article on it from National Geographic that at least tries to paint a clearer picture of it all.

[Hamilton Steele]

Well far be it from he to criticize the manner in which The Sun reports a story (hehe) but that article left out the fact that:

- What's being reported in that story, i.e. using live dogs and cats as bait, is illegal. That article makes it sound like it's something the French government approves of and condones and that's not the case.

I am going to get blasted for this next comment. But I'm going to state it anyway.

What is systemic of France and French culture is the ability to not see what they don't want to see and not acknowledge what they don't want to acknowledge.

Yes it might be ilegal on paper. But rest assured, it is being tolerated and not enforced. At the most basic levels, they get cheap shark steaks and it eliminates the problem without having to spend money on dog catchers and humain disposal.

[robin]

What is systemic of France and French culture is the ability to not see what they don't want to see and not acknowledge what they don't want to acknowledge.

Deja vu! that's almost word for word what my hubby was saying last night about them.

Many years ago (the 60's-70's) he was in France and that part of the world quite frequently.

[XXXWriterDude]

- Other papers reporting the story point out that these are mostly stray dogs and cats being used for this. Now I love dogs and cats just as much as the next person, but in some parts of the world stray dogs and cats might as well be rats. Nuisances, not cuddly housepets..

?????????

I'm sorry, but again: ?????????????????????????????????

So, because an animal is not cuddly and lovable, it makes it OK to shove a hook through its snout and drag it WHILE STILL ALIVE as shark bait??????

[basschick]

i know some people who aren't cuddly or attractive. maybe we could use them for sharkbait instead. unlike the cats and dogs, at least you could explain to the humans that they were making a contribution...

[CorbinFisher_BD]

We use live fish as bait. We raise live animals in some pretty atrocious conditions for food. We do a lot of messed up things to animals. We get pissed off when dolphins get caught in drift nets, yet don't much care for the tuna.

What determines what animals shouldn't suffer and which ones we're willing to put through some pretty rough shit for our own convenience? Lotta cows live pretty miserable lives before slaughtered, but because they're nothing but food to us no one really much cares.

Hamilton_Steele doesn't take issue with hunting, so has no problem blowing a bird outta the sky for sport. (I hunt too, so am just using that as an example).

What makes dogs and cats so special? That they're pets to us here in the West? Other parts of the world don't share that perception.

And so us using our own cultural viewpoints to condemn other cultures for what they do that we do not approve of is, I feel, prejudiced and ethnocentric.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

?????????

I'm sorry, but again: ?????????????????????????????????

So, because an animal is not cuddly and lovable, it makes it OK to shove a hook through its snout and drag it WHILE STILL ALIVE as shark bait??????

To a certain extent? Yes. At least that's how people tend to treat animal rights.

Bunnies are cuddly and cute so let's not test makeup on them.
Dogs are our pets, so let's get pissed when people in other countries eat them.
Horses are our companions and friends so let's make eating horses illegal.

So, here in the US, it's totally normal to eat cows but since we decided horses weren't food and instead companions sometime back, we're horrified at the prospect of their being used for food.

I remember when I lived in South America how horrified some US citizens there would get when they'd find out that guinea pigs were a local delicacy. "How could anyone eat them?! They're pets!" I even knew someone who had like 100 pet guinea pigs he "rescued" from local stores, buying them before anyone who'd wanna eat em could. Same with rabbits.

Eat chickens = yes. Eat parrots = no.

Trap and kill: raccoons, possums, rats, mice, and other such animals considered pests and vermin.

But don't trap and kill cats and dogs because they're our cuddly pets.

I even remember reading an article awhile back about people freaking out and pissed off over the killing of feral cats in Australia. Cuz they're kitties! Say nothing of the fact they're nonindigenous pests causing great harm to native species.

When I lived in Egypt, Westerners were horrified by the local police going out in to the street once a month to shoot and kill stray dogs on sight. But these dogs were pests - carried disease, attacked people, were a real nuisance.

In Bolivia, stray dogs were a real nuisance and carried rabies. But they didn't kill them there. They'd capture them, spay and neuter them, give them rabies innoculations, and set them free. A stray dog with a yellow collar on was a spayed, neutered, rabies-free stray dog.

Why'd they treat them that way in Bolivia, yet blow them the hell away in Egypt?

Again, just pointing out the cultural differences and how we should remind ourselves cultures and circumstances beyond our own dictate different behaviors that we might not necessarily have a right to condemn.

[basschick]

one difference about fish as bait is they don't spend several minutes drowning when people do use them.

[Hamilton Steele]

Hamilton_Steele doesn't take issue with hunting, so has no problem blowing a bird outta the sky for sport. (I hunt too, so am just using that as an example).

Again I'm most likely not going to be politically correct in this. But here goes.

Don't you ever put words in my mouth or make an assumption about what I would or would not.

That said,

I have hunted a hell of alot in my life.

BUT I HAVE NEVER ONCE HUNTED FOR SPORT!!!
I'm not going to start any time soon. And when I target practice I go to a club.

If something sacrifices it's life for the benefit of another. A person damn well better show some respect for it and use every part of that animal possible. Otherwise you're just another "good old boy" with a beer in his hands and shit for brains.


And for the record:

1) I do not hunt when I'm in a city centre or go on hunting trips. There are grocery stores available.

2) I only hunt to put the food on my table, the furs on my bed or back, the fat for heating, etc.

3) When I shoot something I make reasonable effort to make it a clean kill. Otherwise I don't take the shot. You don't make things suffer.

4) Guns and weapons are neither cool nor toys. They are tools! You treat them with respect too.

They are NOT subjects for bragging, showing off, etc. You take a gun out only to do a job and when that job is done you store it ***PROPERLY** IE: Open chamber, trigger locked, locked cabinet and ammo locked up in an entirely different area of the property. And you don't friggen tell anyone where they are. In my home you wouldn't even know where my guns or ammo are.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

one difference about fish as bait is they don't spend several minutes drowning when people do use them.

So they don't suffer or feel pain?

[CorbinFisher_BD]

Well... thanks for the gun safety tips, HS.

[Hamilton Steele]

So they don't suffer or feel pain?

I'm sure your a nice guy and I can see how someone might think that I'm nothing but a good old boy that likes to walk around in the woods handling weapons and drinking beers with his buddies. I also speak my mind and don't give a Tom-cod about what anyone says

So having said that...

You know I don't mean to take a whizzz on your parade. I still don't believe in owning pets and I don't love animals like XXXwriter or Basschick. And my opinion always remains the same. "Animals are animals and People are people."

But having said that my father always taught me to to have a clue what I was arguing before I opened my mouth.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm most likely the only person on this board that grew up in a fishing village without electricy to plumbing. Trust me I know my fish and I know animals.

Fish don't feel pain. In fact they don't feel anything the way you or I would or most creatures understand it. To be blunt they don't have the the same nerves and when you touch a fish they react more to sudden temperature change and pressure. But no one uses live bait when you catch shark and yes I've caught my share of atlantic sharks.


You don't troll for shark. You bait the water and cast your lines and wait.
So in the dog's case I can pretty much work out what they are doing.

And here is whats happening:

1) The water is baited with something like chum, cut up fish, half-rotted butcher's blood or any other strong blood scented product.

2) The dog is hooked via the snout. Then tossed into the water.

3) The dog panics and swims desperate to try to get back into the boat.

4) Now if the water is too warm the sharks might take longer to appear because they aren't as hungry. If the water is too cold it will take longer for the stuff in the water to reach a shark's senses.

5) When the sharks do appear they will slowly begin to work into a frenzy. This has got to put the dog in a complete panic. Imagine a preditor in the water like that making "runs" on you? (And animals know when there is a preditor around)

6) When a shark finally does strike it will be from the side and most likely grab only a leg and begin to tear.

Now sharks don't "Bite" through their prey. Instead they bite, clamp and saw through them by shaking their bodies back and forth. Literally tearing their prey in half. Or in the dog's case, limb by limb.

Trust me the damn dog is alive for most of the ordeal. The average dog is just too damn big to for a shark to kill it in one strike. And yea, I'm factoring in great whites and pretty much almost any other shark species.

You see they are using the dogs not because they are cheaper. But because they will guarantee more catches.

The dog is warm blooded, so the shark reacts to it better.
The dog is paddling all over the place and that further helps attraction.
Plus sharks prefer live game over dead.

Live game will get more sharks frenzied and bitting. Thus overall a better day of fishing.

In normal shark fishing...
You toss in your chum and put a big chunk of something tasty on the hook and wait.


So yes b'ys. I don't agree with this.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

This study says that fish do indeed feel pain and exhibit all the characteristics (both physical and behavioral) of animals able to sense pain.

[Hamilton Steele]

This study says that fish do indeed feel pain and exhibit all the characteristics (both physical and behavioral) of animals able to sense pain.

Buddy,

Putting on my Masters degree and saying this with a straight face.

I can find a study on what umbrella opens faster or what ketchup has more lip smack goodness. All made by some academic nerd that doesn't know shit from shinola.

Look,

If you depend on the sea for money and food. Plus you grow up a boat-scont from bumfuck no where, with a bunch of other people that lived and died on that rock. You damn well know what the creature feels or doesn't feel and what it is like.

Because it's your job to know.