Derogatory use of the word "gay"

**DonMike** · 11-15-2005, 05:52 PM

Hi guys. I know we had talked about this a while ago in another thread, but I was just over at another board where a bunch of webmasters were talking about the use of the word gay to mean something derogatory but other than homosexual, as in "that's so gay". The main idea of the thread was that most people who use the word do not intend it to be derogatory towards gay people, it's just become a word that means something different now, so it's use is pretty much okay.

This was my response. What do you think about what I said? Was I too hard on them?

Well guys, I'm not thin skinned and I don't take offense easily, but I am gay, a homo, a fag and all those other words that people use, and I hate it when you all use these terms negatively. Next time you use the word "gay" to mean something that is "silly, pointless, finnicky" or any other derogatory meaning, try replacing your own name with the word "gay" and use it in the same way. "Dude, you crashed your van while drinking, you are such a Tenletters!". "Aw man, you totally made an ass out of yourself at that webmaster party, that's so Radial." How does that make you feel?

I know you may not mean for it to sound derogatory, but it is. Plain and simple, you can sugarcoat it any way you want, but that's how it is.

There's a scene in the movie "Girls Will Be Girls" where one character holds up a candy dish to another character who is a bit chunky, and says "Take these for the ride, you huge cow!". When everyone looks at her she says "What? I'm kidding". Of course the scene is done for laughs but it's obvious the person was trying to hurt the other one's feelings, but not take the blame for it. Like it or not, this is the same exact thing.

So don't say that gay people are being overly sensitve to this issue, and don't say you are only kidding, take a moment and think about why you use the words gay, fag, and homo in the ways that you do. Wether you do gay sites or not, gay people are part of your industry. We provide content to you, run your servers, post on your message boards, share meals and cocktails with you at shows, and work along side you. Just remember that.

Thanks.

**basschick** · 11-15-2005, 06:32 PM

the first person i ever heard say "that's SO gay" was a friend of my son's - and that friend is gay. considering the way he kept using it, we both told him that it didn't make sense to use a part of his identity as a term meaning weak or lame. guess he wan't convinced because he still uses it that way.

sadly almost no one i know who uses that expression identifies it in their minds with being gay - but at a certain level, it's gotta affect them and the people around them.

**DonMike** · 11-15-2005, 07:48 PM

Thank you Patti, that was exactly my point. It's not that someone means it to sound bad, but there's a psychology there by equating a word (and not in an ironic sense) with something negative. Even though the intent is not to harm, it still makes people think negatively about that word.

**Lee** · 11-15-2005, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by WWC-DonMike

Thank you Patti, that was exactly my point. It's not that someone means it to sound bad, but there's a psychology there by equating a word (and not in an ironic sense) with something negative. Even though the intent is not to harm, it still makes people think negatively about that word.

Thats so straight

I know exactly what you mean though Don, the problem is, that type of saying HAS (and still is in some circles) used as a derogatory term.

Regards,

Lee

**gaystoryman** · 11-15-2005, 08:58 PM

For what it is worth, I think your answer Don was bang on. Words do hurt, and it is too bad too many don't stand up when words are used in a way that are demeaning or insulting. :thumbsup:

**basschick** · 11-15-2005, 09:04 PM

words have a lot of power, and some people use them cruely to take away important parts of ourselves. others are simply careless.

the words ladies or girls is often used that way in sports and movies about sports - the military, too. i've heard coaches and team mates throw insults at each other - apparently the worst thing you can be is a girl

speaking as someone who was given no choice but to grow up as a girl, i think it would be worse in sports or the military to be a parakeet or a groundhog. in any event, it made me feel sick every time i heard it - still does

Madame0120 · 11-19-2005, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by gaystoryman

Words do hurt, and it is too bad too many don't stand up when words are used in a way that are demeaning or insulting. :thumbsup:

I stand up! As will the boy we raised to manhood.

But just like everything else in this world - only the ignorant knuckleheads are heard. However, in MY Home - hate is not allowed, and never ignored.

For 6 years I've watched my son's circle of Friends grow into fine young men. For some we may be the only voice of reason and tolerance in their lives and pray that they remember the Lessons taught by example in our happy Home.

A Mother like me may be called traditional, yet it is anything but. Never working outside the home while raising my child, is a luxury I will always be grateful for. I may never know what it feels like to get that next great promotion, recieve a pay raise or given awards for a job well done. No, Moms like me stand a quiet watch, looking for the small signs her daily care has had impact. Hard years of doing without material things so I could stay at home and be a traditional Wife, melted away the day I got my sign.

There was a new kid was in the wake of the usual after school invastion of noisy boy-things, nothing but big feet and hungry bellies wanting to know why I had to wait to cut the "stupid pan of brownies". They wandered off, none of them interested in my lesson on the physics of cooking and I heard the new one pipe up, That's So GAY. Before I could turn around to explain the Rules of The House to our new guest .. the rest of them jumped all over this poor kid - No words could be sweeter or fill me with more Pride than a 14 year old saying, "Shit man, better Watch out .. cause She will kick your ass if she hears you say that." "Yeah butthead, don't mess up, I'm hungry."

That was my reward, award and validation all rolled into one. There is no job or cause, not a car, big house or thing on this earth that could mean more to me than that moment. Knowing that not just my son, but the rest of the crew of- "my boys" - understood the full lesson of tolerance that is only complete when a person speaks up against bigotry, in all it's forms.

desslock · 11-15-2005, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by WWC-DonMike

This was my response. What do you think about what I said? Was I too hard on them?

Well in my opinion you are being a bit harsh. Look, are you upset at the word, or the idea?

Words by themselves mean nothing. Ideas have power.

Getting into long, convoluted debates over meanings and contexts over isolated words is impossible. And I'm not inclined to tell other straight people how to use or not use a word. They don't know how I will perceive their words, and I sure don't know how they will perceive my words.

If someone is going to demean you, then they will. It is in their personality, often to assert themselves over their own insecurities.

Did you know that if you call someone "mother" to their face, you could not only be calling them a woman who has had babies, but also a living membrane of bacteria that forms on fermented alcoholic liquids (see fourth Webster entry)???

Steve

**DonMike** · 11-15-2005, 10:31 PM

Steve, I have to disagree with you. Letting people talk down to you just so they will accept you is the problem gay people have in society these days. The power behind the phrase "you're so gay" is that the person saying it knows that it could hurt gay people but doesn't care. We are not worthy enough for our feelings not to be hurt. Would those same people ever use ethnic slanders in that same manner? No, because they know it would be socially unacceptable. But it's fine to use a gay slander that way. Why is that?

Your post reminds me of this friend I have who always says "I don't need to tell people I'm gay, I'm not defined by my sexuality". What does that mean? People are defined by their sexuality every day. Every time someone talks about a wedding or anniversary they are wearing their sexuality on their sleeve, every time two people hold hands in public or kiss, they are making a statement. Everyone who has pics of thier families on their desk or show you snapshots of their partners on their cell phones or Palm Pilots they are doing it. And to be gay and refrain from doing these things means you are somehow less than the straight people around you who do. I wish we lived in a society where these things didn't matter, but they do. And until everyone has the right to marry, hold a job, not be beaten on the street with no legal protection, and has the same civil rights, we have to stand up for ourselves.

You dehumanize people by using demeaning words and phrases (even in a careless manner without intent do to so), and if you belittle a group of people enough then it won't seem important anymore if they have rights or not. That is the power of words, my friend. And yes, they are quite powerful indeed.

desslock · 11-15-2005, 10:56 PM

Letting people demean you is not at all what I mean by my post. And also don't confuse what I say with an idea that you should hide your gay identity.

What if someone is using this terminology, but their intention is not to slander?

You know, religious right people never use the word gay. If you watch Jerry Falwell or others, they always refer to us as "homosexuals." Never as gay. Why is that not a potentially heavier slander, particularly if they are implying that being gay is a chosen lifestyle, and not an identity?

And I would say that their use of the word homosexual in the context of advocating the idea as us as second class citizens in public is potentially worse then some kid shooting off at the mouth with stuff they don't understand.

On the other hand I have seen Tim Russert on Meet the Press and Jim Lehrer on the PBS Newshour also use the term homosexuals as opposed to gays in their news broadcasts. I always like watching people and their choice of words.

I guess this shows that ten different gay people can have ten completely different temperatures in reactions to the word. I'll tell you, what gets me flying off the handle more is when a straight person uses the word "lifestyle" in a conversation about gay rights. Several years ago, I participated in a Lobby Day in Washington DC, and this Congressman, who was trying to be ingratiating, used the lifestyle word while talking. I thought my friend next to me was going to lunge across the table at him and choke him with his tie. He didn't lunge, but he did interrupt him with a "it is not a lifestyle, sir.... it is who I am and please don't patronize me" speech that made for a memorable moment.

Certain words can really flip switches.

I guess I am saying that I am very hesitant to determine what someone ought or ought not to say.

Steve

**XXXWriterDude** · 11-17-2005, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by desslock

Letting people demean you is not at all what I mean by my post. And also don't confuse what I say with an idea that you should hide your gay identity.

What if someone is using this terminology, but their intention is not to slander?

But the intention is not the issue; it's the outcome of using the word at all that is the issue here. Obviously, when people say "that's so gay" they (usually) don't mean to demean gay people. But that doesn't make it OK.

My argument about this issue is that the word "gay" was never used in a bad way until homosexuality became a social phenomenon. Before gay people, "gay" meant happy and exuberant and joyful. Then, post Stonewall, "gay" became a negative terminology.

Using this terminology around children especially teaches them that "gay" is a bad thing. REGARDLESS of the intent behind the term, it sends a message that "gay" is not cool. So when a kid starts growing up and learning that certain kids in school are "gay," they will associated with something negative.

I have a friend Leslie who says "that's so gay" or "that's so queer" all the time. I'm always, like, "What are you? In junior high still?" It's an immature form of speak to begin with. Its negative social connotations are just icing on the cake.

Either way you cut it, it's just bad form.

**gaystoryman** · 11-17-2005, 02:42 PM

It is interesting, the idea that eventually the term will lose its mean spirit is to me, unreal really.

Simply because the term '******' or 'so gay' or whatever might be less likely to garner objection by society doesn't make it any less demeaning, less hurtful. The words are used to set aside a group in a negative light, whether intentional or not, and as long as people who are affected by such words remain silent, the abuse will & does continue.

There is an old adage, 'think before you speak' and it seems that today, just like common sense, thinking before one speaks has gone dormant. If people don't stand up for what they feel is insulting, how can they then expect others to rise up and defend them when it becomes more serious?

**Jasun** · 11-17-2005, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

I'm always, like, "What are you? In junior high still?" It's an immature form of speak to begin with. Its negative social connotations are just icing on the cake.

Either way you cut it, it's just bad form.

Well, and that's the crux of the whole thing. I grew up thinking that "gay" meant "mentally retarded" and that all mentally retarded people were gay... I even thought that gay people were mildly retarded.. it was a sliding scale.. the more retarded you got the gayer you were.

Ok, I wasn't the brightest bulb, but I was 6.

My point is the same as Ken's i think... wether they mean it to be negative or not, it is. And I've heard it a million times from people that "I don't mean it like that..." and I simply say "then find a word that conveys what you meant a little better, please."

**CorbinFisher_BD** · 11-15-2005, 11:09 PM

I'm really not sure there's much if any intentional thought to offend when someone uses that phrase.

I'm not saying that means someone can't find themselves offended or hurt when hearing it.

I just don't see a person making it a point to take a stab at gay people when they say something like "That's gay!".

It's just became part of the modern day vernacular.

So, whereas I think someone's entitled to be offended when they hear someone exclaim "that's so gay!" because the negative roots of that phrase are obvious, I don't think it'd do much good to get too worked up over it. Just about every ethnicity and minority and group has dealt with it.

Ever welshed on a bet? Ever known an indian giver? Ever gone dutch on a date? Heard someone say "That's white of you"? Ever had an appliance that was "on the fritz"? Ever followed a swear with "pardon my French"?

Each of those phrases originated from one group of people having a negative perception of another group of people. As offensive as they are and were when they originated, the plain truth of the matter is they're such common parts of today's language that no one really thinks of the origins anymore. When someone says "pardon my French" no one really thinks of what the French have to do with that swear word or think to themselves "Ugh. Those foul-mouthed French!".

"That's so gay" will end up just like the rest of those phrases. Not very flattering, and still bound to offend some. But an integrated part of the vernacular that really has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with gay people but instead holds its own meaning unto itself and neither demonstrates in the user nor inspires in those hearing it a negative thought about homosexuals.