Derogatory use of the word "gay"

[DonMike]

Hi guys. I know we had talked about this a while ago in another thread, but I was just over at another board where a bunch of webmasters were talking about the use of the word gay to mean something derogatory but other than homosexual, as in "that's so gay". The main idea of the thread was that most people who use the word do not intend it to be derogatory towards gay people, it's just become a word that means something different now, so it's use is pretty much okay.

This was my response. What do you think about what I said? Was I too hard on them?

Well guys, I'm not thin skinned and I don't take offense easily, but I am gay, a homo, a fag and all those other words that people use, and I hate it when you all use these terms negatively. Next time you use the word "gay" to mean something that is "silly, pointless, finnicky" or any other derogatory meaning, try replacing your own name with the word "gay" and use it in the same way. "Dude, you crashed your van while drinking, you are such a Tenletters!". "Aw man, you totally made an ass out of yourself at that webmaster party, that's so Radial." How does that make you feel?

I know you may not mean for it to sound derogatory, but it is. Plain and simple, you can sugarcoat it any way you want, but that's how it is.

There's a scene in the movie "Girls Will Be Girls" where one character holds up a candy dish to another character who is a bit chunky, and says "Take these for the ride, you huge cow!". When everyone looks at her she says "What? I'm kidding". Of course the scene is done for laughs but it's obvious the person was trying to hurt the other one's feelings, but not take the blame for it. Like it or not, this is the same exact thing.

So don't say that gay people are being overly sensitve to this issue, and don't say you are only kidding, take a moment and think about why you use the words gay, fag, and homo in the ways that you do. Wether you do gay sites or not, gay people are part of your industry. We provide content to you, run your servers, post on your message boards, share meals and cocktails with you at shows, and work along side you. Just remember that.

Thanks.

[basschick]

the first person i ever heard say "that's SO gay" was a friend of my son's - and that friend is gay. considering the way he kept using it, we both told him that it didn't make sense to use a part of his identity as a term meaning weak or lame. guess he wan't convinced because he still uses it that way.

sadly almost no one i know who uses that expression identifies it in their minds with being gay - but at a certain level, it's gotta affect them and the people around them.

[DonMike]

Thank you Patti, that was exactly my point. It's not that someone means it to sound bad, but there's a psychology there by equating a word (and not in an ironic sense) with something negative. Even though the intent is not to harm, it still makes people think negatively about that word.

[Lee]

Thank you Patti, that was exactly my point. It's not that someone means it to sound bad, but there's a psychology there by equating a word (and not in an ironic sense) with something negative. Even though the intent is not to harm, it still makes people think negatively about that word.

Thats so straight

I know exactly what you mean though Don, the problem is, that type of saying HAS (and still is in some circles) used as a derogatory term.

Regards,

Lee

[gaystoryman]

For what it is worth, I think your answer Don was bang on. Words do hurt, and it is too bad too many don't stand up when words are used in a way that are demeaning or insulting. :thumbsup:

[basschick]

words have a lot of power, and some people use them cruely to take away important parts of ourselves. others are simply careless.

the words ladies or girls is often used that way in sports and movies about sports - the military, too. i've heard coaches and team mates throw insults at each other - apparently the worst thing you can be is a girl

speaking as someone who was given no choice but to grow up as a girl, i think it would be worse in sports or the military to be a parakeet or a groundhog. in any event, it made me feel sick every time i heard it - still does

[MiamiB]

We went to a taping of the TV show "Joey" and at one point when he did something that showed some emotion the other character (a girl) made the comment, "That's SO gay!"...naturally it got a huge laugh!

There were 3 other negative references made about being gay in the same taping for a 30 minute show! This is main stream people...is it any wonder it is so accepted to use being gay as a put down!

We are the only minority group that it is still socially accepted to opening BASH!

Needless to say, my boyfriend and I left the taping early!

OH...For the record we had never actually watched the show "Joey"...it's just that we had just moved to Hollywood and thought it would be cool to seem the production of a TV show...wrong!!

[desslock]

This was my response. What do you think about what I said? Was I too hard on them?

Well in my opinion you are being a bit harsh. Look, are you upset at the word, or the idea?

Words by themselves mean nothing. Ideas have power.

Getting into long, convoluted debates over meanings and contexts over isolated words is impossible. And I'm not inclined to tell other straight people how to use or not use a word. They don't know how I will perceive their words, and I sure don't know how they will perceive my words.

If someone is going to demean you, then they will. It is in their personality, often to assert themselves over their own insecurities.

Did you know that if you call someone "mother" to their face, you could not only be calling them a woman who has had babies, but also a living membrane of bacteria that forms on fermented alcoholic liquids (see fourth Webster entry)???

Steve

[DonMike]

Steve, I have to disagree with you. Letting people talk down to you just so they will accept you is the problem gay people have in society these days. The power behind the phrase "you're so gay" is that the person saying it knows that it could hurt gay people but doesn't care. We are not worthy enough for our feelings not to be hurt. Would those same people ever use ethnic slanders in that same manner? No, because they know it would be socially unacceptable. But it's fine to use a gay slander that way. Why is that?

Your post reminds me of this friend I have who always says "I don't need to tell people I'm gay, I'm not defined by my sexuality". What does that mean? People are defined by their sexuality every day. Every time someone talks about a wedding or anniversary they are wearing their sexuality on their sleeve, every time two people hold hands in public or kiss, they are making a statement. Everyone who has pics of thier families on their desk or show you snapshots of their partners on their cell phones or Palm Pilots they are doing it. And to be gay and refrain from doing these things means you are somehow less than the straight people around you who do. I wish we lived in a society where these things didn't matter, but they do. And until everyone has the right to marry, hold a job, not be beaten on the street with no legal protection, and has the same civil rights, we have to stand up for ourselves.

You dehumanize people by using demeaning words and phrases (even in a careless manner without intent do to so), and if you belittle a group of people enough then it won't seem important anymore if they have rights or not. That is the power of words, my friend. And yes, they are quite powerful indeed.

[desslock]

Letting people demean you is not at all what I mean by my post. And also don't confuse what I say with an idea that you should hide your gay identity.

What if someone is using this terminology, but their intention is not to slander?

You know, religious right people never use the word gay. If you watch Jerry Falwell or others, they always refer to us as "homosexuals." Never as gay. Why is that not a potentially heavier slander, particularly if they are implying that being gay is a chosen lifestyle, and not an identity?

And I would say that their use of the word homosexual in the context of advocating the idea as us as second class citizens in public is potentially worse then some kid shooting off at the mouth with stuff they don't understand.

On the other hand I have seen Tim Russert on Meet the Press and Jim Lehrer on the PBS Newshour also use the term homosexuals as opposed to gays in their news broadcasts. I always like watching people and their choice of words.

I guess this shows that ten different gay people can have ten completely different temperatures in reactions to the word. I'll tell you, what gets me flying off the handle more is when a straight person uses the word "lifestyle" in a conversation about gay rights. Several years ago, I participated in a Lobby Day in Washington DC, and this Congressman, who was trying to be ingratiating, used the lifestyle word while talking. I thought my friend next to me was going to lunge across the table at him and choke him with his tie. He didn't lunge, but he did interrupt him with a "it is not a lifestyle, sir.... it is who I am and please don't patronize me" speech that made for a memorable moment.

Certain words can really flip switches.

I guess I am saying that I am very hesitant to determine what someone ought or ought not to say.

Steve

[CorbinFisher_BD]

I'm really not sure there's much if any intentional thought to offend when someone uses that phrase.

I'm not saying that means someone can't find themselves offended or hurt when hearing it.

I just don't see a person making it a point to take a stab at gay people when they say something like "That's gay!".

It's just became part of the modern day vernacular.

So, whereas I think someone's entitled to be offended when they hear someone exclaim "that's so gay!" because the negative roots of that phrase are obvious, I don't think it'd do much good to get too worked up over it. Just about every ethnicity and minority and group has dealt with it.

Ever welshed on a bet? Ever known an indian giver? Ever gone dutch on a date? Heard someone say "That's white of you"? Ever had an appliance that was "on the fritz"? Ever followed a swear with "pardon my French"?

Each of those phrases originated from one group of people having a negative perception of another group of people. As offensive as they are and were when they originated, the plain truth of the matter is they're such common parts of today's language that no one really thinks of the origins anymore. When someone says "pardon my French" no one really thinks of what the French have to do with that swear word or think to themselves "Ugh. Those foul-mouthed French!".

"That's so gay" will end up just like the rest of those phrases. Not very flattering, and still bound to offend some. But an integrated part of the vernacular that really has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with gay people but instead holds its own meaning unto itself and neither demonstrates in the user nor inspires in those hearing it a negative thought about homosexuals.

[DonMike]

I guess at 36 I'm just an old fart. Being gay I hate it when someone uses the word "gay" to mean stupid or bad. It's just that simple.

[Jasun]

I just don't see a person making it a point to take a stab at gay people when they say something like "That's gay!".

It's just became part of the modern day vernacular.

Great.

You go say "******" in Compton and then tell them that it's just "The modern day vernacular". I'm sure they're going to agree.

Why is it that the gay community.. er.. some of them anyway.. are willing to take being hit with words and defend the people who use them?

I never let anyone get away with that shit around me. Even if they use it in a joking way.. I'll let them know.

I'm not overly agressive.. when someone says "That's so gay" or "You cock sucker", I generally say something back like "You say that like it's a bad thing".

they get the point. I hope you do too.

[DonMike]

I've written about this before, but I think I should bring it up again. I had a roommate some years ago, shortly after coming out, who was always making little snide remarks about me being gay. Him and his girlfriend would say "oh that's gay" all the time. He would call me fag or homo, but always in a "I'm only joking" sort of way. I was so concerned with people accepting me as a gay man that I went out of my way to make sure they knew they did not have to censor themselves around me and that they could joke freely. Did that build respect? No, it actually brought about just the opposite. The attitude I ended up getting from this guy was "hey, I can make fun of this stupid fag to his face and he don't even get mad". His "meaningless" phrases soon took a much darker tone and I went from being his "faggy friend" to being called cocksucker, faggot and all kinds of other things, which I took with a whole bottle of salt because I wanted to prove to him that it didn't bother me. So even though we started out as getting along pretty well, I finally got really tired of being treated like I wasn't even human or didn't have any feelings at all.

And Patti is right. Calling a man by the term "girl" when you feel he is less than a man means you do not think very highly of women. What does it mean when you call someone "gay" whom you feel is stupid and worthless?

[basschick]

ever notice how str8 men make anything sexual an insult? cock sucker, fucker, you fuck. funny - 'cause most people LIKE having sex, so why are sexual comments insults?

they also make any type of person they perceive takes a cock in any orifice an insult - gay men, prostitutes, sexually active women...

maybe str8 men ALL need sexual acceptance therapy

using anything that describes a person as an insult is not only fucking rude, it's also the sloppiest sort of thinking.