Freedom of Speech is under attack in France

[Hamilton Steele]

Both my wife and I are very politcally active. She tend to be more toward the "Save the world and children" camp.

Whereas, I scream about Freedom of Speech/Expression, Racism and never really got past the "Dayglow Abortions/Sex Pistols" phase of my life.
(I'm also putting together a punk band... Ok it's retro but sue me)

So with that said,

France is attacking Freedom of Speech/Expression.

This isn't the first time but French Rap artists are comming under extreme attack. Monsieur R is being partially blamed for the riots! He is facing criminal prosectution. Mainly because he has called France a prostitute. (**Thats an insult to prostitutes if you ask me***)

I'm looking for better articles on the subject. Hopefully another country's journalist will do a full write up because press agents here face harassement from police if they are not "Politically correct."

(**But I'll deal with the censorship of the press another time.. I'm still smarting over my busted camera and kick to my nuts from filming the riots.**)

http://www.sixshot.com/articles/5648/
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Now before I get told that "If I don't like it here to leave." I'm going to quote what my wife said a couple of weeks ago.

As guaranteed by the French Constitution and the Copenhagen Criteria I have the right to speak out!

But more than that:

I live here.
I speak French. (with an accent)
I pay taxes here.
I support the local business in my area with the products I purchase.

Having said that,

If you don't agree with me or like what I have to say.
Then that's TOO F*CKING BAD!!!

No one is holding a gun at your head forcing you to listen or read my stuff.
---

I'm going to be putting up an online pettition later today and welcome everyone that believes in the Rights to say/sing/etc to sign it.

Hammie

[Hamilton Steele]

More on the subject

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4469484.stm

And the inspiration for the French Rap industry

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4405790.stm

[Axel]

I guess you are making a confusion between the American Constitution that famously garantees the freedom of speech and the French Constitution that does not do it as strongly. There is no article where it is said the the freedom of speech is garanteed, and I advise to read the Constitution of the country you're living in:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/html/c...stitution2.htm
Yes, in France, you don't have the right to insult anybody.
For example, people who encourage racial hate in their speech can be sued.

Axel

[Hamilton Steele]

I guess you are making a confusion between the American Constitution that famously garantees the freedom of speech and the French Constitution that does not do it as strongly. There is no article where it is said the the freedom of speech is garanteed, and I advise to read the Constitution of the country you're living in:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/html/c...stitution2.htm
Yes, in France, you don't have the right to insult anybody.
For example, people who encourage racial hate in their speech can be sued.

Axel

Read it many times and have a copy of it in my office.
A good pornographer makes damn certain about his rights before he begins business.

The French Constitution acknowledges and accepts, in the preamble, it's association with the 1798 document, "The Declaration of the rights of man and of the citizen."

(I'll do my best to translate)

Artcile 10 and 11 of that document guarantee that

Article 10: No one can be harrased for their opinions, religious views. (Provided that they expression of such opinions does not break the peace)

Article 11 The free communication of thought and opinions is a sacred right of man. Any citizen can therefore speak, write and publish freely. (But they are not allowed to abuse that priviliage.)

But these two articles must be put into context of Artcile 15 and Article 16.
Whereas,

Article 15 clearly says a society has the right to demand a public official for an accounting of their managment.

Article 16 condemns any society in which the guarantee of rights is not ensured. And there is no speration of power defind in such a manner as to keep "power in check."

When brought together the objective of these 4 articles was to...

1) Allow people the right to develop and grow in both an intellectual and artistic manner. Or to remain ignorant if they so choose.

2) Clearly to keep goverment and public officials answerable for their actions to the those that they most impact. The private citizen.

3) Condemnation of opression and un-necessary goverment interference in the lives of private citizens or interference in the natural development of society.
(Source: Cisar - 1994)

But this does not end there.

France is a member of the United Nations and as such is bound by Article 19 of the Charter of Universal Rights.

It clearly states:

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
(Source Universal Declaration of Human Rights - 1948)

Now where you are making your mistake is that the French goverment is seeking to blame Rap Artists for the riots that occurred last month in France. If you factor in Article 20 from the Universal Declaration of rights and the Rights of man and the citizen.


Article 20
(U.D.o.R)
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Article 4:
(R.o.M.a.t.C.)
States that Liberty is being ablt to do anything that does not harm other people. Therefore the only limit is to ensure that everyone gets to enjoy liberty as determined by law.

So,
1) I don't believe that any of the Rap muscians participated in the Riots. They did neither harmed nor deprived another of their rights.

2) They are in their rights to create Rap music and express their lyrics in any method they choose. And Monsieur R's lyrics, like most French rap artists, are about life in the French subburbs. (He describes what he sees.)

Hence, there is no direct or indirect correlation between the Rap music and the riots. Therefore, France is using Rap music as a scape goat and practicing censorship and stopping freedom of speech.

Indeed, the French priminister appears to be really pissed off that France was called a Prostitute. And saying a country sucks does not normally cause people to riot.
Unless of course it's extremly true.. but even then how can you say it was the fault of one person or a particular group of people.

[desslock]

Sounds to me like you left some rights behind when you left for France.

I often compare the differences of the US with other countries on here, as a foil to the Sky Is Falling hysteria summations regarding America,

Looks like the freedom of speech in France starts ebbing when you do things like defame the state or move into racial and religious relms. (basic areas!)

You live in a country where the State bans Muslims from wearing their traditional clothing in schools or carry religious symbols. This would not last five minutes in the United States. Even their notions of freedom of religion and seperation of church and state are upside down. Don't the churches have to pay rent to the state for land?

Of course you have the right to live wherever you want.

Steve

PS: Such actions by the French government also illustrate how miles away even things like the Patriot Act are from normal day to day life in other countries.

[Paco]

Of course you have the right to live wherever you want.

BINGO! That is something that has always bothered me: a person complains about the place they live, to the point it sounds like they do not like it, yet they remain(?). Why?
I really hated living in Toronto, so I packed my stuff and headed to the place I'd rather be. Like Canadians that complain (every fricken year/Winter) about how cold it is: STFU, pack your crap and leave, please!
I am not saying I am better, I am merely saying do something about it or stop complaining!

France has always done things 'differently' and I fail to understand why people are so shocked when another controversial decision is made... it is simply how they have always done things and will continue to do things! After all, it is what makes them French!

[Axel]

Hamilton, yes the freedom of speech is included in "The Declaration of the rights of man and of the citizen." that appears in the preamble of the Constitution, but it is not as strong as in the US Constitution where is quoted in the 1st Amendment. There are others laws especially for that.

Therefore, France is using Rap music as a scape goat and practicing censorship and stopping freedom of speech.

That is false. It's not France (the Gouvernment), the condamnation of the lyrics comes from a few politicians from the republican party. and this is not the first time, but there was no justice decision that condamned it, and I guess there won't be either this time.
So, I think you can not accuse a State from politicians critics!

You live in a country where the State bans Muslims from wearing their traditional clothing in schools or carry religious symbols.

That is true, but this law doesn't apply only to muslim, but to all religions: christians and jewish too (with their own visible signs).
Note that this apply only to public schools, private schools can do what they want on this subject.
The aim is to ensure people's religion as a private matter. (I wouldn't like to be muslim in a public school where 99% are christian and show it by official prayers, signs, etc)

Even their notions of freedom of religion and seperation of church and state are upside down. Don't the churches have to pay rent to the state for land?

Churches are treated like any private company, they rent, or can buy their land. But all churches (or mos) that were built before the law in 1905 (95% of churches) are totally financed by the State.

Axel

[Scorpio]

Thanks Axel to clarify a few points.

When i was younger, in college, my teacher made me take off the cross i had around my neck... i thought it was totally silly. Now muslims in France are complaining because they have to take their stuff off LOL

Tough shit. So no it doesn't apply to JUST muslims.

Like i always say... if you go live in a foreign country, you gotta follow their rules. You don't like it? get the fuck out. Simple.

[Hamilton Steele]

BINGO! That is something that has always bothered me: a person complains about the place they live, to the point it sounds like they do not like it, yet they remain(?). Why?
I really hated living in Toronto, so I packed my stuff and headed to the place I'd rather be. Like Canadians that complain (every fricken year/Winter) about how cold it is: STFU, pack your crap and leave, please!
I am not saying I am better, I am merely saying do something about it or stop complaining!

My oh my how wonderfully redneck of you.

I can't stomache canada so I left.

BUT

Millions of people do exactly that each and every single year. However, most nations call them ilegal migrants and send them right back where they came from.

I want to renounce my citizenship to canada. But oh nooooooo
I'm not allowed to do that. I have to jump through legal hoops, accept citzenship from another country first and in addition to any taxes I currently owe I may even be asked to pay a "penilty" equal to the last 10 years.

I quote my wife again.
"I'm a firm believer in cleaning up the backyard I'm currently standing in." If everyone left there would be no one around to make things better.

Hell the United States would be filled with guys like "Red Foreman" from That 70s show inside of 2 generations.

Since I purchased an apartment in this country and some of my earnings finds it's way in to the pockets of this nation.

1) I have the right to say whatever I want.
2) I have the right to lobby and attempt to effect changes as I see fit.

To put it in your terms.
If you don't like what I'm saying or what I'm attempting to do. No one is forcing you to stick around and listen to me and you're free to persue your own political agenda.

Hamilton, yes the freedom of speech is included in "The Declaration of the rights of man and of the citizen." that appears in the preamble of the Constitution, but it is not as strong as in the US Constitution where is quoted in the 1st Amendment. There are others laws especially for that.

Now this can make one hell of a great debate. As a point of practice it was the French judicial system that recognizes the concept of "The spirit of the law vs. The legal word of the law."

Is it less in strength to the american constitution? Perhaps on paper, it may very well be. (I've got to read the US document again) But it's impact on French society is not ment to be any less encompassing than the american one.

I invite you to share a cup of coffe at a resturant of your choice and later attend one of my long haired political activist meetings in the 5 eme.

(But you must promise to not make fun out of my Acadien dialect. Otherwise I will do the same because the Parisian one sounds like sand paper to me.)

That is false. It's not France (the Gouvernment), the condamnation of the lyrics comes from a few politicians from the republican party. and this is not the first time, but there was no justice decision that condamned it, and I guess there won't be either this time.
So, I think you can not accuse a State from politicians critics!

I'm going to split hairs on this one with you. These "politicians" are part of the political system and therefore part of "goverment."

Or as the saying goes, "For the people, of the people and by the people."

And unless you can point me toward the direction of the other politicians that spoke out against this. I am going to assume that it more than a few individuals in the republican party.

Thanks Axel to clarify a few points.

When i was younger, in college, my teacher made me take off the cross i had around my neck... i thought it was totally silly. Now muslims in France are complaining because they have to take their stuff off LOL

Tough shit. So no it doesn't apply to JUST muslims.

Like i always say... if you go live in a foreign country, you gotta follow their rules. You don't like it? get the fuck out. Simple.

Oh I agree in strict speration of state and religion. Unfortunately I think this rule is not inforced fairly. I had my grand-daughter enrolled in the state school system and I regularly witnessed children wearing crosses being allowed to wear them in class. Whereas, the muslim children were prevented.

Seeing stuff like this and the fact I'm not a fan of a public education is the reason I pay for my grand-daughter's education. Pisses me that next year when she is back in Canada she will be back in their public run schools. (Oh well.)

[Paco]

My oh my how wonderfully redneck of you. I can't stomache canada so I left.

Cool, I had no idea I was a redneck! (You know, I always wanted one of those funky tuxedo jackets... you know the fuzzy one with red and black squares. Wal-Mart, here I come!)

Yes, you are allowed to renounce your Canadian citizenship (just like Conrad Black). All you have to do is submit a written application for renunciation of Canadian citizenship, for assessment by Canada's Senior Citizenship Judge (employed by Citizenship and Immigration Canada).
In 2000, a total of 96 Canadians did such and ALL requests were granted/honoured or ‘allowed’.


Religion, as far as I am concerned, belongs in only two places: a place of worship (church) & the practitioner's or follower's private surrounding/residence.
Bringing it in to a public surrounding is no different from me masturbating in public - both offend somebody!

[desslock]

No discussion of freedom of religion and France should appear without the very important information that in France the religious buildings are the property of the state and local govenments. People in America don't really get that.... because here, if some people want to start a church, it's simple enough. In parts of Houston, you see Vietnamese churches in strip centers, it's pretty easy for a group to get together and do what they like.

Well in France because of the level of work required in dealing with the state, it means beaurcracy. That is the nub of France's problem.... sure if you disagree with the state it's your right, but the hand of the state in France is so humongous.

Why are people debating on whether someone should live in a particular country? That is not the point. The post is on Hamilton's Steele outrage regarding his shock that the Republic of France only upholds rights to free speech and religious expression when its many-tentacled, omnipresent state is not defamed.

Ok - I just don't understand why people who have created these infamous French instituions of law and social justice fail to hold their own ideas to account. You give your kids the keys to the car, and you are outraged the next day that they wrecked it.

Steve

PS: One reason the freedom of speech is stronger in the Unted States compared to France is because of our system where the judicial branch is co-equal to the legislature and the executive. I don't think in other countries the courts can invalidate the encroachments made by the President or by the legislature as firmly and resolutely as ours.

[Hamilton Steele]

Cool, I had no idea I was a redneck! (You know, I always wanted one of those funky tuxedo jackets... you know the fuzzy one with red and black squares. Wal-Mart, here I come!)

Yes, you are allowed to renounce your Canadian citizenship (just like Conrad Black). All you have to do is submit a written application for renunciation of Canadian citizenship, for assessment by Canada's Senior Citizenship Judge (employed by Citizenship and Immigration Canada).
In 2000, a total of 96 Canadians did such and ALL requests were granted/honoured or ‘allowed’.

The key word you're not catching in your statement is *APPLICATION.* IE: I have to *ASK PERMISSION* Rest assured I have **TWICE** and it's been denied both times.

Ok,
People make the comment "If you don't like it here, leave" all the time. And it has got to be one of the most short-sighted and narrow minded statements a person can make.

Allow me to explain,

History is filled with people that bitch about the problems and did NOT leave.

For examples:
Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and Ghandi

I'm certain that Rosa Parks was told on more than one occaision, "If You Don't Like it then You can Leave" by many people in the southern United States. The irony behind those that make this comment is many weren't, or didn't consider themseleves racists. And even in some cases those making the comment were black.

The "Like it or Leave it" attitude demands an adherance to the status quo. And sometimes the status quo is just plain WRONG! Even if it is in a democratic society and the majority practice or want it that way.

The Stonewall Riots of 1969 (New york) represented a rebellion against an attitude that was deeply ingrained in the values and beliefs of Americans. In the early 70s homosexuality was considered a disease by the American Psychiatric Association. (Look at their diagnostic manual from that time period if you require proof.) It's laughable by the standards of today. But least we forget how it used to be.

I could really go off on a 10 page rant here. Suffice it to say I'm politcally active. Every week you can find me at politcal rallys, meetings and I'm part of 2 lobby groups.

So I'll just end this by saying this,

I may not always LIKE IT.
But that doesn't mean I'm going to always LEAVE IT.
And that does not mean I'm going to ACCEPT IT!
Because sometimes I going to STAY AND FIGHT IT!

[Jasun]

You know, sometimes I stand in the kitchen and twirl around and around like a beautiful dervish.

Other times I throw things at peole.

I miss living in Toronto, and what I liked the most about Toronto was that the people who just couldn't hack it were politely shown the closest VIA rail train and sent packing.

I found a pile of dog shit on a stump outside my house this morning.

LA sun is nice.

What were we talking about again?

[Paco]

You know, sometimes I stand in the kitchen and twirl around and around like a beautiful dervish.
Other times I throw things at peole.
I miss living in Toronto, and what I liked the most about Toronto was that the people who just couldn't hack it were politely shown the closest VIA rail train and sent packing.
I found a pile of dog shit on a stump outside my house this morning.
LA sun is nice.
What were we talking about again?

Uh, you want to share with me what you are on, puh leez?

[Jasun]

Uh, you want to share with me what you are on, puh leez?

Sure.

thus proving that even the Redneck Conservative Canadians who inexplicatbly live in the desolations of Alberta and the stuck up elitist snobs who think they're better than every one else (because they are) who live in Toronto can still party together so long as there's enough to go around.