it's a long post i know...

[Jason]

Ok...I'm just coming down off my little soap box...and I know this post is way too long...but over on GFY there's a thread debating the rights of gay marriage. I, as you can imagine, had a lot to say. As I consider this my online home, I wanted to come back home and discuss it with "family." Here's what I had to say on the issue...would love to hear what anybody else here has to say.

If you want to see the entire thread, you can view it here:
http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...07#post3596507

quote:
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[i]Disallowing the misuse of a concept/ritual invented by and for straight people to mean something special to them isn't oppression or denying anyone any rights. If "denying" this to gays is denying them their rights (how and where did they earn this right?), then by the exact same logic, single people and people who want to marry a group of people or even a plant/baby/child/picture/object/soul/animal are also being denied "their" right and thereby "oppressed [/B]
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Ok...I actually liked your post. It was well written and seemed to follow a logical pattern in argument. But can you please explain to me how you, or any other straight person, "earned" the right to marry...and any gay person did not????

Here's how I see the issue. Marriage is really only a commitment ceremony between 2 (or in Utah more) consenting adults that is recognized by government to allow for certain legal protections and benefits. Allowing civil unions, but not allowing "marriage" is the purest form of segregation. Last time I checked, segregation was illegal.

This thread has offered some good arguments for both sides of this issue, but even more half-assed attempts at trying to spout rhetoric that amounts to nothing more than self-important bullshit...also on both sides of the issue. As far as changing the deffinition of marriage itself...how is it that anyone else who marries has any effect on your own marriage. If that's the case, shouldn't you be equally as offended by the fact that cousins can marry in some states? What if somebody thinks you are married to your cousin. What about people who get married simply because they've gone and knocked themselves up...or for welfare money...or inheritance??? Seems to me these ceremonies should be just as offensive, but they are not in debate.

Where children are concerned...now this issue touches a little deeper I think, for all of us. Yes, I believe the best way possible to raise a child is with a loving father and a loving mother, both financially stable enough to provide a good warm home and an empowering education. Both intelligent enough to explain life at age appropriate intervals. Both concerned enough to participate in life and lead by example. There are many many requirements for "ideal parenthood" but what percentage of American families do you think really fit this mold? Oddly enough, when I came out to my family, my aunt expressed deep sorrow for me that I would never be able to have children as her son was better for her than she ever could have imagined, and she wanted me to be able to feel that kind of joy. When I asked her why she thought I couldn't/wouldn't have kids she firmly espoused the evils of bringing up a child in such a situation. Here's the kicker...my aunt got pregnant...didn't even know she was pregnant for the 1st 4 months of the pregnancy because she drank too much to notice. When she told the "father" he skipped town. As it turns out...when my cousin was 2 YEARS old...we discovered that the man she originally thought was the father wasn't and that the father was somebody else entirely. Now...I know she loves him with her entire being, but can anybody explain to me how that can be better for a child than being raised by 2 loving parents, of any gender, who have sacrificed and designed their lives for the specific purpose of adoption. People who are caring for children before they even have them...not people who happen to fuck up in a moment of drunken lust. This is just one small example.

The other day I dropped a friend off to visit some people he knew. There were 2 sisters, both with x husbands either in jail or on the run...and 6 children living in a 2 bedroom trailer so full of shit that you litterally had to tiptoe past the front door. Whew! I sure am glad those people "earned" their right to marry. What a great future those kids are facing! On a personal level...growing up gay is hard. Nobody, not even any gay parents I know, raises children with an understanding of what it's like to be gay. This leaves countless teens, struggling with the usual pressures of adolesence, with the added burden of wondering what's wrong with them. It's hard. There should be open dialogue and discussion and places for kids to go when they don't understand their own emotions/sexuality. There needs to be a place kids can be comfortable enough to confront those issues and maybe even get some guidance. Human sexuality is not a "disease" in need of a cure.

I'm honestly not trying to "pick on" unfortunate people or circumstances, but merely pointing out that, as humans, we all have certain rights...but the most basic is the right to choose. Those people all were able to choose whether or not to marry. They chose whether or not to have children. Now really, for better or worse, any person, by virtue of his/her humanity should have the right to choose for him/herself. It's a good damned thing Hitler didn't let the Germans marry the Jews...just think how fucked up the world would be now if they'd gotten an earlier start!

I know I've gone on way too long already, and there are pages more I could write. But for now I'll stop and thank anyone who has actually taken the time to read and consider any of this.

[Jasun]

An excellent reply, if not a little long winded, but I'd have taken him to task about the marrying a child/thing/dog statement. That type of logic makes the veins on my forehead bulge. A man can't marry a dog or a child or an inanimate object because the dog/child/inanimate object either doesn't want to marry him or is incapable of making said decision.

Comparing that to two gay people who have been together for years who care for each other and share their lives makes me want to break stuff. Makes me wonder if these people think of marriage as anything other than a vessel for sex and ownership of another person.

I mean, honestly, how fucked up is it that Britney Spears can stumble drunk into a chappel in Vegas and marry some guy she went to high school with "as a joke" and after 48 hours of sex and sobering up, get a divorce, but marriage needs to be defended from a lesbian couple who have been together for 51 years?

If they really wanted to protect marriage, they'd send Britney to rehab.

but your answer was better than mine.

[Jason]

I don't know....I really liked your answer :grin:

[Gary-Alan]

Jason... very well said. And points many people have been trying to make for a long time, especially on raising children.

I went over to THAT board to read the other responses. And i have to say I was surprised at the mix.

One thing you pointed out above is the posters assumption that rights are earned. That I think is a big part of many debates, especially ours. Rights aren't earned, privleges (for lack of a better word ) are earned.

Driving, drinking, buying a house, driving a nice car are things people earn. And if you fuck up somehow you can lose that privilege.

I think that many people miss the entire concept of rights verses privileges.

I just hope that some people read what you're really saying over there, instead of pouncing like a pack dogs foaming at the mouth.

Thanks for sharing this!

My best,
Gary-Alan

[DigitalJay]

Bill O'reily made the same comparison - according to him gay marraige would pave the way for pedophiles, ***********, etc. The important point they leave out (of course, because he and anyone else who makes this comparison is a complete moron who should never, ever, for any reason have children or be allowed around them!!!) is that none of the things they compare gay marraige to involve TWO CONSENTING ADULTS! This issue involves segregation based on sexual preference, sexual discrimination (telling people they can or can't get married based on their sex is sexual discrimination in my book!), but definately not a breakdown of the non-existant moral fibers that hold our shoddy, hypocritical in every way possible country together.

[Jason]

just got this from Jasun on icq this morning. He said I could share it here:

bedfellowjasun (11:30 AM) :
A friend of mine heard this on the radio this morning:Host sets up the segment, describing a Bush fundraiser at an evangelical church dinner where the attendees are applauding Bush's stance on gay marriage.Woman attendee: "Yes, I'm very much in favour of the president's support of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. After all, if gay marriage is allowed, there won't be any children born in the US, and all the other countries of the world will continue to have children. Their children will have an agenda against the US but we won't have any children because of gay marriage."

123Jason (11:31 AM) :
omg

bedfellowjasun (11:31 AM) :
You gotta wonder if it's possible to be that stupid in this universe.. you'd think the laws of physics would prohibit that.

123Jason (11:32 AM) :
or at least natural selection would have weeded her out by now

bedfellowjasun (11:32 AM) :
Then again, maybe the only thing keeping some people heterosexual is legislation.

bedfellowjasun (11:32 AM) :
Once it's legal, maybe the Evangelicals will all come bounding and leaping out of closets and wardrobes everywhere.

bedfellowjasun (11:36 AM) :
You know, it's funny you said that you feel like GWW is your online home, 'cause I really feel like that myself.

Thought you all might get a kick out of that

[Jason]

sorry jasun...didn't mean to tarnish your rep...i'm sure they all still think of you as a hard ass..
hhmmm...
:whip:

[Jasun]

Oh hey, man, if you can't be sappy at home, where CAN you be sappy... you know, aside from Celine Dion concerts, the Grammys, group therapy, 12 step meetings and the annual family get togethers I get suckered into.

[Gary-Alan]

Jasun - you'll always be a hard ass to me

Thank you, guys. You don't know how good your conversation makes me feel. :crybaby: (happy tears)

All my best!
Gary

[Jasun]

Originally posted by Gary-Alan
Jasun - you'll always be a hard ass to me

It's all the scar tissue.

[BDBionic]

Oh good lord is this thread ever so incompatible with my internet attention span.

OHHHHHH! ONLINE TETRIS! *runs off*

[Jason]

Originally posted by Jasun
It's all the scar tissue.

oh gross

:ohoh:

[basschick]

ultimately, i think the problem is people who are marginally interested aren't going to read a long post. you can make them read 3 short paragraphs, but more and you lose them.

this is always very difficult - it is so hard to balance all the things you want to say vs readability :-(

[Gary-Alan]

Originally posted by basschick
ultimately, i think the problem is people who are marginally interested aren't going to read a long post. you can make them read 3 short paragraphs, but more and you lose them.

this is always very difficult - it is so hard to balance all the things you want to say vs readability :-(

True!

And especially, in a world of instance gratification and headline readers. It is a battle to get that one point, maybe two points, across before interest is lost.

I'm not perfect and do the headline grab myself espeically on line. But when I see someone has taken the time to write something, just like Jason, I am compelled to give it my time and read it through. I may not like it at the end (or love it as I love your Jason's ) but at least someone will get the point LOL

My best,
Gary