2257 - move to another country?

[USAJock]

is it true that if one moves one's site/content to another country - say Australia - that it would not have to be 2257 complient?

:gossip:

[pocoloco78]

I am not completely sure, but I think you still have to comply because you are US citizen or have a US based company.

[basschick]

no, it is not true. if you read the law, it refers to your place of business - not to where your site is hosted. i also talked to a couple lawyers about that, and suggest that you do the same if you're not sure.

as it was explained to me, if you are here when you work, 2257 applies to you.

[Xstr8guy]

What if you transfer "ownership" to someone in another country and act as an employee?

[citiboyz]

What if you transfer "ownership" to someone in another country and act as an employee?

If you sell or close your business, aren't you still required to keep records for 7 years? But I guess you wouldn't have your name on the sites anymore.

[basschick]

yes, whoever was the custodian must stay the custodian for 7 years.

[TropixxxStudios]

Remember though that the US Government has a long arm.

I had a friend move to Germany to 'escape' a tax lein. Nothing happened for about 4 years...until her parents got sick and she wanted to come back to the US to visit them...

They did not allow her a VISA to come back.

I would suspect that if you are not 2257 compliant, they will find some way to screw you in the long run.

I can imagine a time in the future where they restrict the ability to view sites on servers that are not US based, etc. Maybe I am too paranoid...but as much as a pain in the ass as 2257 is...it really is not that bad.

Get some software, spend a few days getting everything into it...and from that point on it is just easy to update.

Just my opinion.

[hdkbill]

From my understanding all site that have adult content which is covered under 2257 are supposed to be compliant.

Now, from a realistic standpoint, if you live in another country, your server is in another country, your bank accounts are in another country I would think you've be pretty safe from having to worry about any inspections even if you are a US Citizen.

If you are in fact a resident of another country and everything is located outside of the United States the US really would not have jurisdiction over you as 2257 is a US Law and applies only to US residents.

And, realistically, the Department of Justice doesn't have the resources to inspect all of the primary and secondary producers in this country, much less those that operating legally out of another country. The only exception to that of course would be child pornography which violates the laws in most countries.

I suppose that if I lived in Amsterdam, my servers were in Amsterdam and my bank accounts were in Amsterdam, I'd have the 2257 information posted on my sites but I damned sure would not be to concerned that a team of FBI agents was going to be knocking on my door to conduct 2257 inspections.

Bill

[basschick]

our gonvernment has never really dealt actively with 2257 before so this is all unknown territory we're discussing. the feds could bust a guy who could turn you in. they've also known to be at internext and to read the board.

why fuck with the feds? they can throw your ass away for a loooooong time, and waste years of your life in court, using all the money you made OR they can freeze or sieze your assets. they can arrest someone who knows you and ask if hey have worked with you in this country - and ask them for the phone number they have for you.

and if it's obvious you were avoiding them, i believe that is a charge of its own. plus if you talk to anyone about doing this, it's conspiracy. you could do 20 years IF your caught.

[chadknowslaw]

Trying to "move offshore" but not really leaving the country will not avoid 2257. If you sell bicycles in the US market from Belize, your bicycles must still comply with US law to be sold in the US. If you sell porn in the US, then that porn must be compliant with US law to take advantage of the US market.

By trying to find a way to avoid the law, you are risking greater troubles.

My legal opinion [no charge of course!] is to spend your time, energy and money on complying with the law rather than finding ways to avoid it.

[Xstr8guy]

Ok, all of these opinions make sense and I suppose all of you are compliant then. May I ask another question... what software are you using? I'll be completely honest here. I still haven't found anything that actually works as required by the regulations. If there is anything out there, then you all are sure keeping it a secret.

[hdkbill]

Ok, all of these opinions make sense and I suppose all of you are compliant then. May I ask another question... what software are you using? I'll be completely honest here. I still haven't found anything that actually works as required by the regulations. If there is anything out there, then you all are sure keeping it a secret.

Jim,

I've looked at all the software (I think) that is available, and they all have their flaws and none are completely in compliance with all of 2257.

That being said, let me say this. I am as in compliance as I can possibly be. We have a 1st Amendment attorney, (huge damn retainer), and have followed his advise completely. BUT......I don't want all of my files in a database that is accessible to the FBI or anyone else. Don't misunderstand, I do have that, but it's not in my office and not accessible to anyone but me.

All of my 2257 files are in paper form, filed in file cabinets, I guess about 10 of them now. They are all locked and they all sit in an un-airconditioned portion of my warehouse right next to a desk and chair and several security camera that broadcast video (not audio) and record off site. Signs are clearly posted to that effect.

Now, I pray, that if the DoJ ever does come to check my files that they do it in August when it is 120 degrees outside, and about 150 dgrees inside that portion of the warehouse. If they show up they will find that we will be polite and pleasant. We will happily allow them full access to the thousands of pieces of papers in each of the files and more than willing to allow them to use the desk and chair. I'm told they need to bring their own copier. They will be invited to stay as long as they wish once they provide me with their cards, names and identification numbers and we contact our attorney and provide the same to him. They will also find our files to be in full compliance

The last thing I want is to grant to them is access to one of my computers that has all of that information so that they simply click a few buttons and save what they want and then and then be able to peruse those files at their leisure.

Now, does anyone think that I'm being wrong in this approach?

I'm sure, that as Patti has said, the DoJ monitors these boards. And, I agree with Chad that we should spend our time and effort and dollars making sure we are in compliance. But, as many times as I have read 2257, I just don't see where it say I can't keep all of this documentation in hard copy form and in an un-airconditioned warehouse.

Bill

[chadknowslaw]

Bill,

You can absolutely keep your records in hard copy form. There is no specific way to keep the records, although we are specifically authorized to keep records in a digital database--but not required to keep them in any specific format.

My only concern is that YOU have to go into that hot warehouse to maintain your records! They might come one day but you know with 100% certainty that you must go in there to do some work. However, there is no rule that the air conditioning has to work on the day the inspectors are there. ;-)

[JustMe]

2 cents from JP on this, as I use to assist the FBI in criminal investigations in the past (related to cybercrime / information warfare), and have a good bit of experience dealing with them. I've also lectured at both the FBI Headquarters in Washington DC and at the FBI Training Academy in Quantico Virginia.

I feel far too often in the conversations that I've been seeing take place on various boards, that FBI Agents are made out to be "evil" or "the enemy". I think one of the things we as an industry need to do is separate the Career Law Enforcement Agents of the FBI from the politically appointed offices (such as Attorney General).

As a whole, I can say without a doubt, the agents that I came in contact with were some of the most dedicated, devoted, patriotic, self sacrificing individuals that I've ever met in my life. They are intelligent, highly trained, and consummate professionals.

To be honest, I'm willing to bet most agents involved with these "inspections" hate them just as much as we do. I believe there's something very unamerican feeling about the entire inspection process, and I also believe that many of these agents feel that way as well. We're forced to keep the records and make them available, and they're forced to inspect them.

I had the honor on several occasions of meeting many agents from the "Innocent Images" division of the FBI, the group of people responsible for tracking down child pornographers, and I suspect the same group that now has what is probably a forced hand in 2257 as well. These agents dedicate their lives to protection our nation's most vulnerable, and I just have to think that the political pressures surrounding 2257 and the wasted federal resources on it must just infuriate them. They know who the real criminals are, and they certainly know who the real victims are, and anything that would detract from their work must just frustrate them to no end. They don't want to harass anyone, and they don't care about legitimate business, they want to save children who need help, who are being hurt and scarred for life.

I had one agent tell me once that she always felt guilty taking days off, because she knew that every minute she wasn't working to find these abused children, is another minute that they're forced to endure that abuse. Do you think she cares about 2257 records inspections and harassing the adult industry? I certainly don't.

As for our company, we keep all of our records in a database. While it's certainly possible for DVD producers to keep their records in paper form, I honestly see NO WAY that anyone who publishes content on the web could POSSIBLY do the types of URL cross referencing and the like that is required via paper format. The sheer volume of that task combined with the dynamic nature of web development I believe commands electronic records.

Are our records 100% perfect? Who the hell knows. We're doing our best to abide by the letter and spirit of the law, have all of our records, and that's all that we can do. While the ridiculousness of the statue allows for 5 years in prison for even a minor clerical error, I firmly believe that we'll see nothing like that play out in the form of actual prosecutions. I firmly believe those will be reserved for companies and individuals who have shown total contempt for the law, and probably deserve to sit in prison for a host of other issues on top of what would be charged from the 2257 statute.

I can tell you one thing for certain:

If we do happen to be unfortunate enough to go through an inspection, I won't be making an effort to make the agents responsible uncomfortable, or inconvenienced. They won't be forced to work in 150 degree heat, or treated with other similar contempt or disrespect.

In fact, it will be the exact opposite.

That all being said, I do want to mention those that I DO hold contempt for, and that is the politicians and political appointees who have ignored what the field agents have told them, ignored what the adult industry has told them, and ignored what legal scholars have told them. Frustrating efforts to track down and prosecute those who are abusing children, to appease a conservative base by harassing legitimate industry, is a defenseless act.

I will continue to support the FSC in their efforts and hope that they prevail against this ridiculous statute, and I have a hunch many on the "other side" are secretly hoping for the very same.

[basschick]

the fbi agents are sent to do a job, and i doubt it's up to the agents to decide what is to be inspected and what is not. they have been sent in with lists so far, and the can't leave till their job is done, uncomfortable or not. that being the case, the only effect that i can see in making them uncomfortable is to make them irritable and that will make them feel a lot less friendly.