Epoch vs CCbill: is everyone missing the point?

[gaybucks_chip]

I don't know if I'm the only one that thinks this way, but in my mind, it's completely ridiculous for a bunch of Epoch employees to register at GWW jam the GWW ballot box to vote for Epoch and then just leave, never to be heard from again, just as it's ridiculous for CCBill employees at GWW (regular or otherwise) to be voting for CCBill. At the end of the day, the truth comes from the *users* of both services, and they are the only ones qualified to judge. Stuffing the ballot box is just childish and stupid, and glowing support messages from people who have a vested interest from cosponsorship deals are equally transparent and stupid.

Folks, this bickering isn't doing anyone in the industry any good. Epoch fired the initial volley when they stole Patrick from CCBill. They've fired another volley by locking CCBill out of the AVN shows, which is simply an appalling move. CCBill has long courted and supported gay business, and while Epoch has always been happy to have it, it hasn't been a priority until recently, and now they're aggressively going after it. Competition based on providing better services or better pricing is fine; using underhanded tactics like trying to shut out your competitors is not.

Honestly, Epoch and CCBill are our ONLY TWO VIABLE US-BASED PROCESSORS. (I don't count 365Billing, SegPay, Ynot Billing, or any of the others.) BOTH processors need our support. They BOTH need to be strong, healthy processors. Losing either one would be disastrous for our industry.

Ditto trade shows. AVN has a long history of putting on shows, and while they have some problems, as long as they play fairly, they deserve our support. CCBill stepped in and took the struggling Phoenix Forum and turned it into a world-class event. They, too deserve our support.

But this crap with taking sides and lining up behind Epoch/AVN or CCBill or whatever serves no one's best interest.

Scheduling a new show within two weeks of an existing one doesn't serve anyone's best interest either.

Limiting who can sponsor a show doesn't serve anyone's interest.

We need to unite, not to divide. The adult business is exceptional and probably unique in that if people look at it correctly, there really are no competitors; we can all make money from each other if we do it right.

Particularly now, with the loser Bush administration people doing all sorts of nasty things to try to disrupt our industry and .xxx looming, it's wrong for companies to be doing things that pull the industry apart.

The industry is not in a position to be able to boycott one or another of the companies involved, but if it was, I would be saying "Send your business to the people who are promoting unity and growth in our community, not people who are trying to destroy other events, limit webmasters access to information and choice, and create friction and divides within our field.

We need these companies to be role models of how we in the industry should work together, not a bunch of egos who are sniping at one another. Are you listening?

Does anyone else agree with me?

[Dzinerbear]

What I find even funnier is that someone at the company would actually suggest employees do this. It is all rathe rediculous, especially in this day and age of multiple billers, cascading billing, etc.

Grow up and put your energy into getting a merge feature for webmasters.

Cheers
Michael

[gaystoryman]

Well said :thumbsup:

[basschick]

hey, i'm not missing the point. not only does our industry NEED more than one good u.s. processor but most companies do cascade at some point, so many of us will use both companies and need to to make the best living we can.

there is no choice between the two as far as a quality company with ontime payments goes. as far as i'm concerned, it's a tie.

[chadknowslaw]

Epoch fired the initial volley when they stole Patrick from CCBill.

I disagree -- Patrick was not stolen, any more than a wife leaves a husband for another man is "stolen" from the husband. No third party comes into a solid relationship.

If your boyfriend leaves you, then there must be something you are not providing otherwise he would not be interested in the other guys advances!!



I think Patrick just got a better offer and took it--that is not stealing. If he had been completely content at CC Bill, he would not have left.

[gaybucks_chip]

I think everyone is missing my overall point. It's not about Epoch or CCBill or AVN or who did what to whom, or who is better.

It's about not creating factions within the industry.

There are plenty of ways to compete fairly, and plenty of ways for friendly competitors to be cordial and respectful, and work hard to earn for people's business, whether it's attendance and sponsorship at a trade show or membership billing services.

These companies are in a position to model leadership on how to work together, which could strongly benefit everyone in the industry. But at least two of the three are throwing that opportunity away for their own selfish interests.

Yes, we're a capitalist economy and some would say that all is fair game. But I think there's a bigger picture here, and I really wish these guys would "get it" so that they and everyone else could continue to benefit from the cooperation and collaboration that is possible within this industry.

Perhaps I'm just too much of an idealist.

[chadknowslaw]

Chip, I think your overall point is that some influential supposedly mature companies are acting like jealous petty clicky junior high girls.

[Dzinerbear]

You know, we'd all be a lot better off if ccbill and Epoch would move away from fear-based operations and work together. Xstr8guy and I have been doing that for a couple of years now. We run similar hubs, use the same content, even compete to sell the same AVS memberships, and yet, we help one another. If I can't have the sale, I'd rather he have it, and I know he feels the same.

Can you imagine how much money we'd all be making if ccbill and Epoch were actually sending declined traffic back and forth as a matter of course?

When you seek to put another company down, or when you try to elevate your own business at the expense of someone else's, I think it really just mean that you're not confident enough in your own product.

I'm not insulted when a surfer says Jim's site is the best hairy man site he's ever seen, doesn't bother me at all. I know that my product isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. And that's cool.

Michael

[Epoch Holly]

I really enjoy this forum because I like to read people's opinions and on this board I feel they are more valuable then others. I do have to take issue with the statement "Epoch stole Patrick" noone can steal you from a company you are happy working with believe me I know! Patrick simply moved on to where he thought was a better fit for him. He is a wonderful guy and a great asset to this business! I am sure it was not an easy choice for him!

[gaybucks_chip]

OK, so I overstated that point.

But like I said, not only is everyone missing the point, they are missing the point of my message saying they are missing the point. This isn't about Epoch stealing or not stealing an employee, it is about giants in the most crucial part of our industry (media and communications and billing) doing shit that simply isn't beneficial to the industry as a whole.

I like the Epoch people a lot. I like the CCBill people a lot. I like the AVN people a lot. I just wish the ones who are doing self-serving underhanded shit would instead work together in a cooperative fashion.

[desslock]

You know, we'd all be a lot better off if ccbill and Epoch would move away from fear-based operations and work together. Xstr8guy and I have been doing that for a couple of years now. We run similar hubs, use the same content, even compete to sell the same AVS memberships, and yet, we help one another. If I can't have the sale, I'd rather he have it, and I know he feels the same.

Yeah, but these two companies are all capitalist pig bankers. And, remember, capitalist pig bankers eat their young.

Wait, actually you know i'm kidding.

This episode is interesting to watch to me from the outside. Look, all I see Epoch doing is competing aggressively for business.

And actually this makes a great empirical case against laws like anti-trust or federal bank / consumer regulation because we actually see that when there are just two firms in a market THEY DO NOT COLLUDE.

(that also rebutts the justification for federal Net Neutrality laws.... painting a good example of why collusion between competing firms is always very very difficult, particularly for a long period of time. Economics game theory has a famous model of this called the "Prisoner's Dilemma")

Maybe I am the only person thinking about this, me being the Economics geek... but after the GayVNs (and Epoch was everywhere at the GayVN Conference) I wondered on my plane ride back to Austin about whether if any of this aggressive business lately between the two would mean lower costs or better deals to their customers. Maybe out of all this it will start costing less for paysites to take credit cards.

This certainly happens when a new gas station opens across the street.

Steve

[gaybucks_chip]

AJ and I were talking about the competition = lower cost thing last night as well.

I suspect that what we will see first is enhanced value (i.e., free MPA3) as a competitive edge. I suspect that neither Epoch nor CCBill want to get into lowering their discount rates because they know it will just lead to a price war where they'll both lose.

Both of them will quietly negotiate on discount rate if a site has the volume to justify it, and I suspect it's always been that way. But I doubt that we'll see any lowering of their listed rates because all that will happen is the other company will immediately match it, and they are probably smart enough to see that.

What I am surprised about is that the off-brand players (other than Verotel) haven't really done much with cutting discount rates. Since they don't really have a lot to offer, you would think they would be inclined to offer a better rate, but I haven't seen much evidence of that. Of course Neova was doing much lower rates, but then that was a janky one-man show that wasn't really operating legally to begin with, so I don't really count them.