With all due respect, Ken ...

[Dzinerbear]

Out of respect for Tombarr I won't hijack his thread.

Ken in http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=22775 you said, "When and where? Sounds fun! Though God knows I'm not too keen on seeing a lot of the people who have been posting on this board as of late..."

You and the gang complain about Lee keeping the fight going and stirring things up, and then, you go and say something like this in a totally unrelated thread. As a moderator of this board I feel its my responsibility to tell you to grow up. Either you want it to continue or you want it to stop, you can't have it both ways.

And if you're not too keen on a lot of the people who have been posting on this board, then leave. God knows there are any number of other gay boards out there.

The thing that kills me about this whole AVN / Epoch / Cybersocket / GWW drama is that people constantly rip into Lee and this board, but no one else in this industry seems to be able to come up with a viable alternative for the gay industry. Enough people have stormed off to start their own boards, and yet no one follows them. Oh there's an initial flurry of activity, but then when the posters realize that there's no one to talk to on this new board, they trickle back here.

If people hate this place so much, then why don't they all head over to The Gay Board, or some other place, and create a lively and vibrant gay webmaster community.

Michael

[Squirt]

One thing I've found is a lot of the people who used to post here, and on other boards, no longer do.

Instead they read the boards, and communicate via Skype or ICQ to others they know, occasionally making a new contact here or there.

It's a catch 22. Lee wants to make GWW a better place but most new stuff he implements doesn't catch on. People who try to make new boards aren't very successful.

I think part of it is that Lee makes many new threads a day, and posts. That gives GWW a sense of community that other boards I've visited lack.

I honestly believe that a good round of some quality therapy could make GWW a much better place.

I don't think that telling community members, as a moderator, to take it or leave, is productive. We are all community members with opinions, contacts, etc. We all make our own mark on this community and Ken of all people is someone who brings a lot to the plate here.

And whether we are a part of the GWW community, or another, we are still a part of the Gay adult webmaster community.

[Mansized]

One thing I've found is a lot of the people who used to post here, and on other boards, no longer do.

Instead they read the boards, and communicate via Skype or ICQ to others they know, occasionally making a new contact here or there.

It's a catch 22. Lee wants to make GWW a better place but most new stuff he implements doesn't catch on. People who try to make new boards aren't very successful.

I think part of it is that Lee makes many new threads a day, and posts. That gives GWW a sense of community that other boards I've visited lack.

I honestly believe that a good round of some quality therapy could make GWW a much better place.

I don't think that telling community members, as a moderator, to take it or leave, is productive. We are all community members with opinions, contacts, etc. We all make our own mark on this community and Ken of all people is someone who brings a lot to the plate here.

And whether we are a part of the GWW community, or another, we are still a part of the Gay adult webmaster community.

Agreed. I stopped posting on here a long time ago because of the continual "drama" and name calling (ironically, got drawn back in by some bombshell news that I didn't believe and was told to check it out on gww..so I did..and well..geez..it's BIG DRAMA still).

And I know of a lot of webmasters who are on here just to try to improve their biz and keep their mouth shut because they don't want to get drawn into taking "sides" in so much drama. And that I think, is the bottom line for why people lose interest: not enuf business "talk" too much "drama talk" in which it seems you are almost forced to take sides on.

Drama WILL draw a lot of people to a board..but it won't keep them for long if thats all there is.

Besides..if I want drama threads..there is ALWAYS GFY..and no one will ever dethrone them from being #1 at that! :develish:

[gaybucks_chip]

I think Lee differs from many of the other regulars as to drama. In general, I'm in favor of spirited discussion and disagreement, but not flaming and name calling and personal attacks. I thnk that Lee looks at drama as something that boosts page views, and that may be true, but I think in the long run, it probably alienates regulars, and so the offset between page views gained by drama and the page views (and posts) lost from people that don't like the drama probably balance out.

Calling someone on their *actions* is one thing. Making personal, hurtful remarks is something else entirely. Some of us can just let it roll off, but others are a lot more sensitive, and will just drop out when the flames get too strong.

Personally, I'd like to see a little more civility. I will be pretty quick to call someone if I perceive they are being untruthful or spouting BS, but I try to do so in a way that addresses the *subject* rather than attacking the person.

That's a formula that's worked for me on another board I moderate (unrelated to adult, but sometimes contentious nonetheless). I think it would also work here... but then, I'm not the one setting the rules

[Lee]

You and the gang complain about Lee keeping the fight going and stirring things up, and then, you go and say something like this in a totally unrelated thread.

Ultimately, that is what the problem is with that whole group, they want to have their cake AND they want to eat it.

Bottom line is this, you cant publicly profess wanting one thing, then go and do something that is contrary to that, whether it is Ken, Morgan, Karl, Cybersocket, AVN or Epoch.

I have seriously considered banning that whole crowd but what good would it do the gay webmaster community? None whatsoever, so its a pointless temporary resolve, that in itself would cause more 'drama'.

As it stands, allowing them to continue with their petty childish ways is going to let everyone see them for what they really are and ultimately, people are going to talk with their $$$ and their feet.

As someone else mentioned in another thread, all of these companies and individuals who constantly crave attention by attacking me or, the GWW Community as whole, already HAVE THEIR OWN BOARDS yet they continually attack GWW here, where everyone can see it, because their boards have failed... Miserably, for the very reasons mentioned in the paragraph above.

I am also willing to admit that i do in fact contribute to the pettyness at times but, only when pushed to the limit and the regular 'flow' on GWW becomes affected.

What would people rather have, bannings of that whole group so they can start shouting 'censorship' again, which will get their boards traffic for a week or, my rising above the constant baiting and letting GWW Community members make their own minds up as to who/where they want to support?

Right now, i just cant be bothered with the petty personal attacks as there are more important things going on within the gay webmaster community, namely, being divided for reasons of pure financial gain rather than for unity.... Of which the questions the gay webmaster community has asked of these individuals and companies, are still unanswered, some 2 weeks later.

Im just so done with the 'drama' of this whole group it really isnt funny anymore. Let the crap sink to the bottom, where it belongs, the cream will always, and already has, risen to the top.

For a group of companies who are always saying they will be 'leaving GWW and never coming back' they sure come back a lot $0.02

Regards,

Lee

[Madame0120]

I'm SO glad I'm completly unaware of all the in-fighting, and do all our business based on how we are taken care of.

So where's the line, between lively discussion and Drama?

[Jasun]

I have learned in my relatively long life that without drama, a homosexual will wither and die.

I try to not get involved in any of it because it's just never anything that effects me much.

Where a gay show is and who's throwing it doesn't matter much to my job... I'll show up where ever it is...

Who owns which site or who doesn't isn't anything that effects my life either way.

I don't even get bugged when high-schoolish rumors about what I did or didn't do in Phoenix two years ago finally make their way back to me. It all adds to the mystique of Jasun, I guess.

I figure as long as they're talking about you.. especailly talking shit.. it means you're a big player.

I get along with virtually everyone because I just don't let any of the bullshit affect the way I do business or with whom I do it.

(Sorry.. did I just make a thread about me?):haha:

[Jasun]

OH, one other thing I've learned....




Drama causes traffic. :jasun:

[gaystoryman]

Drama that television and books are made from can be most entertaining, but I prefer to just sit back and take it all in. Well put Michael, and in all honesty, a good attempt at trying to bring some sanity into things.

We all get heated up at times, and a little cooling off is sometimes warranted. If someone likes to bait the hook, doesn't mean the other has to rise to it. For myself, I find a lot of the drama needless if some would simply just not take the bait, or at least restrain from making their backhanded slaps at others. However that is just life.

my two cents :morning:

[Xstr8guy]

Drama WILL draw a lot of people to a board..but it won't keep them for long if thats all there is.

Ah, that is exactly the reason why GWW is successful. GWW has an occasional spasm of drama but it also attracts some of the most knowledgable webmasters in the gay biz. And almost without exception, they are willing to unselfishly share their knowledge and experiences with anyone willing to ask questions and listen.


Imo, the people who bitch the most about 'too much drama' are the ones who love it the most.


.

[gaybucks_chip]

Lee, to address your comments, I absolutely wouldn/t ban anyone from the AVN/Cybersocket group... some have provided very helpful info and useful contributions.

Deal with the actions specifically. Warn about inappropriate behaviors when they happen. Ban temporarily to let things calm down if the people cannot get it under control. But let GWW be an open community tolerent of different viewpoints... but feel free to call anyone (politely, if possible) on their crap.

[DonMike]

And I know of a lot of webmasters who are on here just to try to improve their biz and keep their mouth shut because they don't want to get drawn into taking "sides" in so much drama. And that I think, is the bottom line for why people lose interest: not enuf business "talk" too much "drama talk" in which it seems you are almost forced to take sides on.

I'm sorry Mansized, I have to disagree with you there. I don't think you ever have to take sides. I like Lee and I have been very active on this board since the early days (hell, I even remember this board before it became blue). Having said that, I have disagreed at one time or another with almost everyone here. And I have stepped in and made myself referee when fights have gotten out of hand. You'll have drama on every board. And, truth be told, a little drama adds spice to a boring day. I mean, who here hasn't sat there with your afternoon coffee after lunch and read through some flame war or argument just because you didn't want to go back to submitting galleries or writing that blog entry? And sometimes you jump in just for fun, or because you get fired up by something. The trick here is to see it for what it is and not let it affect you. Enjoy it as a bit of drama fluff fun and then get back to work. But there's no reason to discount the usefulness of a board because there's drama on it. That's like saying you're never going to a gay bar again because someone got too drunk and became obnoxious. Or you're never watching a TV show you love because they had a bad episode (although I'm seriously considering leaving Battlestar Galactica because *************, but that's a whole other story).

And this isn't just for Mansized, it goes for everyone. If you don't want drama, don't read the threads that have it and certainly don't partake in it. There are some threads I won't touch with a ten foot pole. And there are some subjects where I will keep my opinions to a few close friends and that's it. Following those two simple rules I have an enjoyable time on this and several other boards.

[Dzinerbear]

Or you're never watching a TV show you love because they had a bad episode (although I'm seriously considering leaving Battlestar Galactica because *************, but that's a whole other story).

BSG season finale was last night here in Canada. I guess you didn't catch it, Don? There's still hope that you might remain a fan.

Michael

[XXXWriterDude]

My apologies to anyone who may have been offended, but I was merely making a joke, Michael, about the amount of people who have been trashing the company I work for. I certainly think I was entitled to a little bit of humor, as ill-advised as it may have been. But again, apologies to anyone who may have been offended.

[XXXWriterDude]

Right now, i just cant be bothered with the petty personal attacks as there are more important things going on within the gay webmaster community, namely, being divided for reasons of pure financial gain rather than for unity.... Of which the questions the gay webmaster community has asked of these individuals and companies, are still unanswered, some 2 weeks later.

If you want to stop the drama, Lee, then STOP IT. Instead of attacking companies with venom, fire and brimstome, accusing them of doing all sort of horrible dastardly deeds to ruin the industry, why not instead come to the table with good will and common decency? Your problem is that you approach everything as if you are the moral superior and that what you think is the only way. If you really want to unite the community, then stop pitting people against each other and then pointing the finger at OTHER companies for perpetuating negativity. Tact is everything in business, yet you display so little of it on GWW. Instead, you come at people with your knife already pulled out, and you don't give them a proper chance to defend themselves. And I'm not even talking about the current situation. This has been an ongoing problem on this board. And that does very little to foster a sense of "unity." So step up to the plate and ACT like you REALLY do want to bring the community together, and then do it. Be a leader, NOT a divider. Stop thinking of yourself as being better than everyone else, and then MAYBE people will stop singling you out.

For a group of companies who are always saying they will be 'leaving GWW and never coming back' they sure come back a lot $0.02

For the record, this is something I've NEVER said. I may implied I would stay away for periods of time, but I have never stated that I was never coming back. There you go again with accusing people of doing things they haven't done. And yet, you wonder why people have a problem with you...