Why don't people get 'kicked out' of this industry?

[deanb]

With the talk of underage models should be blacklisted, the question comes up, why don't we black list some people? Why are people that film underage guys allowed to still make money off of this industry, while causing huge amounts of damage to our credibility. Why are people that scout underage guys allowed to stick around?

With all of this talk of "we should police ourselves" why aren't we more active in doing so?

[Jasun]

I mean really... how do you get people out?

Anyone can open a site, promote it themselves, sell their DVDs from it and do it all without an affiliate program.

What are we supposed to do? Snub them at parties? I mean, there's people who do that to me as it is and I'm still here...

[Lee]

Because as long as someone, is making somebody else money then they are 'top notch' and nobody seems to care, sad, but true

Regards,

Lee

[Trixie]

If someone is doing something illegal it's up to the government to regulate or ruin people's businesses and other than that, ultimately it is up to the customers whether or not someone can run a profitable business. Personally, I think that's the way it SHOULD be (aside from personally boycotting people who do unethical things or have business practices you don't agree with as a business-person yourself). You can also publicly post lists of people or sites you have issues with and inform surfers why you do not do business with them and suggest they don't support them either. Of course, that opens up a whole legal can of worms if you accuse them of something they didn't do which brings me back to letting the government take care of those things.

Why do I feel this way? Because the people in this industry who are for "self-policing" (and yes, they do exist and get quite a bit of attention on other boards and in industry magazines) are generally people I vehemently disagree with in terms of what they think we should crack down on: hiring known prostitutes, for example, requiring all talent be 21 or over, and also not doing anything the gov't or credit card companies are liable to deem obscene (for example, showing menstruation -- I know most of you you guys on this board don't need to worry about that, but I do). I want to run my business MY way, and I don't think it's visa's business or your business or anyone's business what I do or how I do it or who I do it with as long as I pay my taxes, deliver upon the promises I make customers, pay my bills and don't physically hurt anybody or knowingly shoot minors.

It's a dangerous thing when a marginalized and maligned group of people (pornographers, for example) start fighting with each other and figuratively lynching each other instead of coming together to fight the real enemy which at this time is THE GOVERNMENT and the people who support the war on porn with these ridiculous obscenity laws and moronic 2257 regulations which have never helped protect even one child and never will. It's not my fellow pornographers' business OR the governments' to tell me I'm allowed to put four fingers in my vagina on cam but not my thumb at the same time or to tell me that it's okay to have ten guys ejaculate on my face for a shoot but not to stick a cock in my pussy if I'm having my period or to tell me I should go to prison for a thought crime if I make believe my boyfriend is my daddy in a video and call it an incest role play.

It's one thing to be critical of each other and concerned about the implications of other people's business practices (showing unprotected sex, role-played rape, working with people who've scammed other people, etc.) and quite another to talk about POLICING those people and trying to destroy their ability to make a living and enjoy free speech. There are plenty of things people do in this industry that I think are totally fucked up, and plenty of people who think what *I* do is totally fucked up. I say it makes for great conversation, NOT a basis for regulating each other. In fact, I am almost more scared of the vocal and conservative people in this industry than I am the feds.

[jIgG]

theres no authority to blacklist anybody, choosing not to do business with someone would be the alternative.

money talks
cash and rebills is the name of the game if the person delivers that's all most care about as long as they're happy and have the dough rolling in

[gaybucks_chip]

The very nature of what makes people go into the adult biz in the first place is that they are "renegades"... people who don't give much of a crap about what others think.

As a result, they don't give a crap about what others think.

So... to a lot of the people in the biz, selling a DVD from some company that is known to have at least one, and possibly/probably more, underage models totally doesn't matter as long as they make money off of it and don't think they will get in trouble for selling it.

It's very sad that there is so little integrity/ethics in this biz, but that's pretty much the way it is. (Not that many other industries aren't just as bad...)

[Lee]

Its interesting reading through these types of discussion, especially when you take the main basis for them out of the equation, in this instant, underage models and replace that with 'scammer', 'fraudster', 'theif' etc.

If there was someone we all knew 100% was actively scamming, stealing and defrauding people in the adult industry, i wonder if people who have the same attitude towards 'its not our place to kick them out'?

Regards,

Lee

[Kushiel]

It's very sad that there is so little integrity/ethics in this biz, but that's pretty much the way it is. (Not that many other industries aren't just as bad...)

I know this is kind of off topic.. but I was actually about to mention that.

I keep hearing, "this biz," or, "our industry," or, "our community," all as if this isn't happening in all kinds of other industries and types of business. There are so many people that seem so shocked and appalled that in our line of work centered around debauchery and sex (No, I'm not knocking it.. it's just a fact) that we have just as much of a chance to have corrupt, manipulative people that commit crimes? And the 'Get away with it?'

I've heard rants about Brent Corrigan or Ms. Lords and how horrible it is that they have name recognition because of their debacles... But we have people like Lindsay Lohan running around in mad, drunken car chases with coccaine in her pockets, going to rehab.

The first time she got in trouble, there was a slap on the wrist, and she "Asked" to wear an alcohol-detecting anklet device, went to "rehab," and still managed to get into trouble again. Such wonderful people we have in the news these days.. not just in the "Adult Industry"

She'll face penalties for her actions... One such that I've heard is she'll have to pay out of pocket for any future movie she works on (if she ever gets hired).. Why? Because she's proven herself to be a liability. The same runs true with Brent.. Whether he's guilty or not of the more serious allegations people have attributed to him, he'll always be remembered for what happened. Will he grow from his mistakes like Lindsay hasn't? Who knows? But I guarantee you anyone that's intelligent and is actually looking to have a successful business will be wary in their dealings with him.

Then there's the whole Michael Vick thing (you know what I"m talking about if you're into sports.. though I'm not. I just get to hear it on radio shows in the morning) (http://www.boston.com/sports/article..._suspend_vick/) His team wanted to suspend him, and more than likely not take him back at all. But the commission won't allow them, until a board reviews the case, and is just letting him skip pre-season practice.. Oh.. with pay.

So really.. when you get down to it, this sort of thing is happening every where. Not just with us. We're just more in the spotlight with it because we happen to work with a much more "delicate" subject matter.

[Trixie]

Another example of that (our industry not being the only one to forgive and forget in even worse ways) is this guy:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/jjonesmug1.html

You know, the principal in Ferris Bueller's Day Off who took pics of a 14 year old and now has a role in a new movie (Who's Your Caddy, where his name, hysterically enough, is Cummings).

[Dzinerbear]

Even if there were some mechanism in place to blacklist people, you'd never get the entire industry to adher to the blacklist.

First, how would everyone find out about it? Only a small percentage of webmasters come to these boards.

Second, you'd always have people breaking ranks to make money. Webmasters would either promote them to take advantage of the lack of sites promoting the offender, or sites who were already making a ton of money off said site would be very unlikely to give that money up.

Probably the easiest way to blacklist someone would be to get both of the top billers to stop processing for them. And I don't know how you'd achieve that. They would clearly have to have broken the law.

Michael

[Bec]

Even if there were some mechanism in place to blacklist people, you'd never get the entire industry to adher to the blacklist.

First, how would everyone find out about it? Only a small percentage of webmasters come to these boards.

Second, you'd always have people breaking ranks to make money. Webmasters would either promote them to take advantage of the lack of sites promoting the offender, or sites who were already making a ton of money off said site would be very unlikely to give that money up.

Probably the easiest way to blacklist someone would be to get both of the top billers to stop processing for them. And I don't know how you'd achieve that. They would clearly have to have broken the law.

Michael

And then that's where the law steps in ... and it's the law makers who can make the whole process hell for those that aren't trying to do anything illegal in the first place. Rather a vicious circle, and I'm not convinced that the ones that really need shut down are the ones that get found out about simply because they aren't "following the rules" to begin with.

[asvictims]

With the talk of underage models should be blacklisted, the question comes up, why don't we black list some people? Why are people that film underage guys allowed to still make money off of this industry, while causing huge amounts of damage to our credibility. Why are people that scout underage guys allowed to stick around?

I don´t see so bad. If some site try cheat, steal or just use underage models, don´t will be exist so long ...

[JamesXR]

I agree with Trixie, it's vicious watching people in the industry rip each other apart and go ultra-conservative, however I think things can be done.

1. Naturally the first step is everybody sending me a $1000 membership due. I'll put all those checks in a particular bank account until I have a couple hundred thousand. Then I'll lean on the major players who aren't in yet to join in and give me their money.

2. Now having a huge wad of cash, we set up a regulatory board website and officially license websites and dvds as being part of the "Responsible Gay Adult Mafia". They'd have a graphic with their license number to put on DVD boxes, and Websites, and they'd be listed on the website.

3. At least half of the remaining warchest would go to marketing, making it known everywhere that only those companies sporting the RGAM seal can be certified as responsibly produced porn. Much of the remainder would be held for the legal costs involved in suing those using fake seals and non-complying members.

4. Recurring annual memberships would be drastically reduced as affiliate sales through the RGAM website would go a long ways towards supporting it.


The rules would need to be simple. Everyone will want something banned, but the regulation would be worthless without rules everyone can agree on.
-Consistent policies for age checking models (I'm not sure on what these should be, but they should be the most effective for a small cost)
-No barebacking, or a consistent approach to blood testing. So either condoms, or you go through the same strict rules on blood testing. That would mean something like a blood test no more than a week old before a shoot, and preferably paid for by the studio, so as not to get forgeries.

I'd really have to look at best practices before setting the guidelines in stone. I think that everyone can agree on consistent methods to keep out underage models, and solid protection against the spread of STDs.

With enough major players involved I think that they can pressure magazines and other media outlets to refuse advertising to non-members.

It would rely heavily and on industry members to police themselves, but with the full knowledge that members agreed to heavy fines ahead of time for fudging documents and cutting corners. So a member who doesn't get an HIV test from a model before the shoot would basically be owned by that model should he choose to turn them in. However, if a producer does everything possible and a model still gets in, the pressure would be off the producer. I think members breaking the rules should be fined/sued, and blacklisted for a number of years, depending on the infraction. I think underage models with false documents should be blacklisted for a number of years also, but not permanently.

For the record, 2257 and obscenity would not be our problem. We'd leave that to the government. This would be about raising standards in the industry, not about appeasing the government

If all goes well we'd expand to the straight niche.

If anyone wants to take this seriously and send me checks, I'll open a separate bank account and deposit those checks. If I get over 10k, I'll exclaim "Holy shit, these people are really serious!" and get started deal making." If I don't have enough major players signed on to make it work, I'll return those checks 12 months from the date the account was opened, but I'm keeping the interest.

Yes, seriously people, I would do this. I suspect it would become profitable after being established, and I would run it for profit. I think the farthest this might go would be returning $1000 to a few people, as I suspect that many of you prefer whining to action. I'll take pledges from major industry players in lieu of money, and that would also get me going, actually, scratch that, I'd prefer serious pledges over money. I'd have to start a company and all if I received the money, for tax purposes and all. So yes, sincere pledges to join and pony up the cash would be preferred.