CS vs. JUB - "The Challenge" - and the winner is...

[abostonboy]

CyberSocket challenged JUB and JUB decided to take them up on the challenge.

http://www.justusboys.com/advertise.html

You decide the winner...

[abostonboy]

Sorry....

from the JUB website,

"Cybersocket claims in its magazine, on its website, and in its advertiser materials that it has been audited by the Circulation Verification Council, but CVC claims to have never audited them. We suggest that interested parties contact CVC at (800) 262-6392 and then perhaps contact Cybersocket for comment as they haven't addressed this issue publicly."

I called and they will state that they never audited CyberSocket.

[Lee]

Just backs up what i have been saying for YEARS about Cybersocket.

Regards,

Lee

[Squirt]

Aren't there good people working at Cybersocket or am I relying on old information? I know the guys at JUB got it together, but never worked with the Cybersocket people before.

Any idea?

[abostonboy]

Aren't there good people working at Cybersocket or am I relying on old information?

I am sure there are some good people at CyberSocket. There are also some good people working in the Bush administration as well...

[JamesXR]

Cybersocket is full of good people. I personally like many of them, but sometimes good people make mistakes and then compound them with further mistakes. It's sad.

[TropixxxStudios]

I am sure there are some good people at CyberSocket. There are also some good people working in the Bush administration as well...

Ok, that made me smile.

I have only met Douglas, and I like him...

[basschick]

"mistakes"? like "oops - we forgot we didn't actually get our circulation audited, and didn't even start an audit in the last few years"?

or do you mean insulting their competition on public boards? how about a few years ago when lee had a successful party at a convention called the gay webmaster bash and the next year cybersocket sent out an email for their party with the subject Gay Webmaster Bash? i was sure it was from lee when i got it, and so were others...

i'm sure there are some good people there, but it seems like as a company, cs sometimes likes to take shortcuts relating to their competitiors.

Cybersocket is full of good people. I personally like many of them, but sometimes good people make mistakes and then compound them with further mistakes. It's sad.

[JamesXR]

Hey BassChick,
What if they come out, and admit wrong. What if they admit to cutting corners, and admit to not getting their audit for years because they couldn't stomach the cost. What if they truly believed that their circulation has stayed steady, that a new audit would simply show the same thing as the last one, and in a moment when the cash was a bit tight, decided to tell what they considered a little white lie. Then perhaps it just became easy to do again. If all that was the case, and a big if, because who knows what the real case is, but if, would you be willing to forgive them?
I say that because the hell they're going to admit wrong If they know they're going to burn and go out of business for it. If you kill a lot of people and have death sentence hanging over you, what's the big deal about killing some more. If they think that Cybersocket goes down over the truth, then they'll never level with us. Maybe they'll reform their wicked ways if you forgive them.
Can you be like Jesus BassChick? Not republican jesus, but real forgive them and believe they can be better Jesus. Sorry, I'm not Christian, but I do believe in motivating people to do the right thing, and Cybersocket looks like they need motivating. I also like to bring Jesus into things. I got my picture with Jesus at the Bondage Ball.
Look I know I'm a sap for believing the best in people, but seriously, presupposing people have various good qualities is a good way to motivate them to live up to those qualities.

So everybody clap if you believe in Cybersocket, or fairies, or both.

[gaybucks_chip]

Um,

I think a lot of people would be open if Cybersocket would break their silence and make a statement that was honest and direct. However, I think any statement about "Oh, we meant to and money was tight" would simply be BS and would do more harm than good.

When an advertiser spends hard earned cash based on a representation that circulation has been verified, and it hasn't, that's pretty much fraud, and bogus explanations are not the appropriate response, honesty is.

Forgiveness happens after someone has asked for it, or when there's some indication that they've done something to deserve it, and usually implies that whomever is being forgiven wants to change/improve.

As far as I've seen from the boards, there's been no such indication whatsoever from Cybersocket. What we have seen is that, as of just now when I checked, their webpage still says they are audited by CVC, while letters and emails provided by CVC indicate they've never, ever been audited. That's a discrepancy that is a little hard to ignore.

Also, as Patti has said, this is not the first time that Cybersocket has been accused of shady stuff. From cancelling buses at Internext that were supposed to take people to parties thrown by competitors, to crushing Lee's parties, to being involved in the scheduling of the GayVN show that resulted in cancellation of Gay Phoenix Forum to accusations of cronyism with the Cybersocket awards... not to mention the various rumors that distribution of Cybersocket magazine (and, indeed, the actual press run) has been decreasing substantially for years, there are just an awful lot of rumors and accusations... I have no proof of any of this, and it's just conjecture that others have made, but usually, when there's smoke, there's fire. The difference is that, for the first time, it's hard for Cybersocket to make a plausible denial when CVC who is in a position to know, is stating in writing otherwise. And that is the only possible reason why they've been silent, since in this case, nothing else makes sense.

I am a total believer in people's ability to change. I've seen it many times in friends, models, even companies. But for someone to change, they have to be willing to change, acknowledge their past mistakes, take their lumps, and move forward.

Mansion did this when they were found to have put a "shave" feature in MPA-2. I'm sure it was a hard decision to own up to it, and occasionally people still slam them for it, but they did come clean, corrected the situation with the release of MPA-3, and I think in most people's minds, they've turned around to become a company that people respect and trust.

Cybersocket could do exactly the same thing. But I agree with Patti that until they give the slightest indication that they plan on changing their behavior, people will continue to be skeptical, and I believe that continued silence will also further tarnish other Cybersocket activities, such as the awards.

It's also pretty baffling why you'd see fit to be defending them in a circumstance like this. If they were truly good people, they would own up to the issue, correct the problem, and move forward.

It's really too bad. The problem is easily solveable, it just takes someone willing to stand and face the music.

[JamesXR]

Thank you so much Chip. I am proud to accept the Gaybucks Chip award for "Most Naive Post Ever".
Still I don't think I deserve it. I did put an awful lot of ifs and wishful thinkings in that post. Please read a post twice before you slam it. I really did ask if they could possibly get forgiveness if they just decided to be open, honest, admitted their wrongs, and apologized. That's a pretty tall order, and as you put it, uncharacteristic of them. Still I'd really like to see them just open up and level with the people.
I'm really hoping that they don't pop onto the boards with a lame excuse that doesn't jive with reality, and stick to their guns in the face of all contrary evidence. Then I'm going to be stuck meeting them at shows all the time, smiling at them awkwardly, my naive trust totally betrayed. I don't think they're going anywhere, so I'd rather that they man up and give people the truth so I don't end up feeling betrayed, and we can move on. Lame denials aren't going to do anything but drag this out forever.
So I'm making the offer, I will forgive in exchange for honesty. No grudge.

[gaybucks_chip]

I reread your post after posting mine, which is why I edited to remove the part about "most naive post" -- I felt it wasn't fair. You actually beat me to the punch by posting before I'd made the correction (less than 10 mins.)

I didn't actually say it's uncharacteristic of them because, the truth is, I don't really know what is or is not characteristic of them. I would *like* to believe that they are good honest people who, like the rest of us, want a successful business and to be able to work together with other companies in this industry.

But regardless of what your optimism or my or anyone else's obvservations say, actions pretty much speak above all else. That's why I'm hopeful (but not really optimistic) that they will speak out and address the situation. I do think a lot of people will forget and life will go on if they own up to it and move past it, but I think this is one of those things that won't just go away with silence.

[basschick]

james, as chip says

Forgiveness happens after someone has asked for it, or when there's some indication that they've done something to deserve it, and usually implies that whomever is being forgiven wants to change/improve.

as far as i know, cs is perfectly happy with the way they do business. there's never been any indication that they aren't.

Also, as Patti has said, this is not the first time that Cybersocket has been accused of shady stuff. From cancelling buses at Internext that were supposed to take people to parties thrown by competitors, to crushing Lee's parties, to being involved in the scheduling of the GayVN show that resulted in cancellation of Gay Phoenix Forum to accusations of cronyism with the Cybersocket awards...

[abostonboy]

Forgiveness happens after someone has asked for it, or when there's some indication that they've done something to deserve it, and usually implies that whomever is being forgiven wants to change/improve.

James,

I BELIEVE you made a post about Sen Craig on another board and asked if webmasters would "forgive" him if he admitted what he did. Well, he did the exact opposite. Claimed he did nothing wrong. Said he "intended" to resign (hoping that charges would be dropped and he wouldn't have to), then went on to say I am staying in the senate after he admitted he couldn't effectively serve as a senate. All against the wishes of his peers.

I don't even want to talk about "forgiveness" at this point. Making assumptions that someone is going to apologize is crazy. One can look at previous actions of Cyber Socket and "expect" that silence will be the ONLY answer.

Here are some issues -

1. They insulted their competition on a public board (some say they accused them of fraud) and asked them to "show us the numbers". JUB did. What did CyberSocket do? Hide behind an audit that never took place and remain silent,

2. The awards show. Where do you vote? They supposedly began Nov 1. Rumors have been floating around for a while about those. I think they are questioned even more and I would say recent events give the rumors some credibility.

3. Shows. Rumors about Cyber Socket putting pressure on Sponsors not to advertise at certain shows has been going on. I am NOT just talking about the Gay phoenix Forum either. Are they true. I have no idea.

4. Look at the bad taste that webmasters still have w/ Epoch concerning those rumors as well. Hell, i have at least three clients that I have advised to put Epoch at the top of the cascade instead of Ccbill. All have said they don't fell good about it in light of what they feel happened in that case. So much for an easy way to get in the gay market as the rumors suggested.

5. Will the real Dirty Tony please stand up. Now, I am hearing webmasters talk about that and some shady stuff going on. I have no idea what it is, but it's out there.

6. "This is an announcement to let you know the party has not been cancelled". Some will know what I am talking about.

Do you really want more examples? Yes, many are "rumors". But I haven't seen a company have so much bad publicity amongst webmasters and rumors in a long time as I have had about Cyber Socket.

One should look outside the box now. The time has come. In an interview w/ AVN on the question of a "gay mafia". (just the fact that there is a term gives the sense of credibility to shady business practices IMHO), Morgan replied,


"
No. It was a joke made by Aly [Drummond] years ago at the Phoenix Forum. It sort of snowballed thereafter. People are way too busy worrying about their own business to do anything as a connected group. I think there is a perception that there is a closed circle of people who are doing business with each other and have been for a decade. That is not a mafia, it is a group of people who have figured out ways to promote each other and profit. That is going to occur in any industry as it matures. That does not prevent a new innovator from coming into the market at any time and becoming equally or more successful than anyone who has been around longer. I think the belief in a mafia that is somehow manipulating things is a severely defeatist and irresponsible thought. It justifies not trying and seeks to blame someone outside of ourselves for lack of success. "

http://www.avn.com/index.cfm?object...4F51EF512068C05

I have added emphasis to part of the response, as I feel it is appropriate. There are companies now that are innovators coming to the market. Just Us Boys is one such company. Other companies like gaydemon are getting a good amount of consumer traffic (as jub is). The tubes are pushing traffic. Some blogs are really pushing traffic. The industry is changing folks.

A new breed is being born. This new breed has a chance to make a difference in the market and the way we do business. They can do it in a positive way.

Who knows what JUB or any of the other companies are doing?

The bottom line you have to ask yourself is does an apology from Cyber Socket REALLY matter. Cyber Socket runs a website that is lower on alexa than many gay traffic sources, has a magazine with high ad rates and God only know how many copies reach the consumer (when I say consumer I am still confused - webmaster or porn surfer?), and from what I hear about GAYVN was responsible for a show that had less attendance than GPF and from an operator of another board said, the GPF was much better, hands down (or words like that).

Maybe this is the beginning of a change of guard in the gay industry. Out with the old ideas. In with fresh new ideas that unite rather than divide.

Lloyd

[abostonboy]

p.s. As far an "apology" goes. Too little, too late. Plain and simple. One can forgive, but never forget.