making my site a pay site

[Ghaleon]

First of all, I want to thank all the ones who responded to my previous thread, "iBill cancelled my account". You guys have been very helpful to this newbie. What I'm going through now is nothing compared with what happened to me before.

I applied for ccBill to process my credit card transactions. They don't have any problems with my content (thank God). However, the salesman said it will be very difficult to get my site approved, since I want to charge for each picture, and he wants me to make a "members area" and charge members a fee to have access to all the pictures for a specific period of time (say, a month). He also said $15 was way too much for just one picture. I told him the reason why I was charging so much was because the pictures are way big (about 6 MB each) and don't fit in my 21 inch monitor. He didn't get why would I want to create such a large picture, and I said they are that big because they are made for printing. He didn't see the value in that.

He also said that I could say that I am available for commissions and could charge $15 for making a drawing with a specific sex act, according to the customer's instructions. I didn't say anything then because I didn't like that idea. One of the main reasons I am an artist is because I can do wherever I want. :-)

I then said that I was hesitant to make it into a pay site because it takes me a long time to complete a project. For example, the "Violet Wand" series took me 4 months. And that would be way more than what the industry demands, which is updates once a week. He said that it would be once a month. Still, he doesn't have a problem with me updating less than once a month.

I asked him to refer me to some similar sites so I can get an idea of what they did. He referred me to three sites:

www.xxxcartoonporn.com
www.bovarart.com
www.juliustoons.com

For some reason, he could find tons of anime sites and had a hard time finding line art in other styles. That's good for me. :-)

He said that I should place just some of the drawings on the "preview" section, and move most of them (including the high resolution ones) in a "members only" section. He ended the call by saying that I should think about it and call him back. I didn't have to make a decision right away. I didn't think of him to be rude at all. Actually, he was very respectful, helpful, and answered my questions and my concerns.

Although I was disappointed at first, the more I think about it, the more I am willing to do this. After all, this is the standard in the porn industry, and that's a proven business model. And besides, I have been thinking about expanding my site into a pay site after the individual drawings would've been for sale. Some of the members here suggested that. So I might have to do that right now anyway, ha ha.

I have a few questions, though. How many drawings should I place in the "preview" section? And do I have enough content already to charge a monthly fee? Of course, it will be "non-renewing" since it takes me so long to finish a project. And would $20 for a month's access be alright? Or would another, higher or lower rate, be better?

Take into account that I don't have many drawings, (I have about 12) but they are very high resolution (2550 by 3300 pixels), which is unheard of in the industry.

Another idea I have is to post my art in progress as I work on it. That might make people want to come back and it might add value to the site. And if I do that, I will definitely be able to update at least once a week. But would people be willing to pay for that? I have some other concerns about it, but the more I think about it, the more I believe they are no big deal. My first concern is that by posting work in progress it will "spoil the surprise". I don't like to see projects until they are done myself. But of course, many people think otherwise. My roommates have seen my works in progress, but they are straight and they don't care. :-) And of course, if you don't want to "spoil the surprise", you can just not click on the link. :-)

Another, more important concern that I have, is that if people see my work in progress, they can copy it before I finish it. Again, that's not such a big deal. Since I am the only employee in my business, I can finish it anyway. :-) And besides, porn is basically minor variations on certain themes as it is. The difference is in the details. Furthermore, even if somebody copies it, nobody can make art like me.

And I am not saying with my last sentence that I am better than other artists. Just different. I am fully aware that there are many other artists better than me, beginning with Gengoroh Tagame.

So what do you think guys? Would making my site a pay site be a good idea? Of course, I might have to do it anyway to get it approved. I want to get this done so I can get on with my life.

[gaystoryman]

Well I'd say that you can do what you want really... use a 1 day membership as the basis for each picture/drawing.

Set each picture up as a separate 'sub account' so it leads to a specific download page for that drawing

Each sub account can be whatever price point you want. This way the 'buyer' can download without having access to the other downloads... course its a bit of bitch to set up if you have 100's of pics.

Another option is to look into a shopping cart / oscommerce type site but seriously no reason why you can't do separate 'sub accounts'. It's what I do for my books and works like a charm... one pswd file, one script, but numerous sites all pulling from the one... random generated sub directories so they can't guess an order and gain access... plus I use a d/l management program in addition to record the ip and insure no one is d/l more than one copy of the file.

just my pennies worth
hth
Ian

[Dzinerbear]

I think you ought to listen to the ccbill rep. Since he works for a company that processes for probably thousands of adult sites, he's probably pretty much seen every thing. He knows what works and what doesn't. I would say he likely knows his market very well.

Finally, I've got to push several hundred visitors through a site with 65 galleries and over 5,000 pictures in order to sell one MANcheck membership for $19.95. (And that also gives them access to 31,000 other sites.) If you want people to pay for a membership to your site, you're going to have to provide them with a lot of stuff. That means, you put all of your pictures in a gallery, charge $19 a month, or whatever you're going to charge, and that's it. Add to it every month.

What I'm trying to say is that people expect a lot for their membership fee. You have to let go of what you think your work is worth. People are joining your site because they want art to hang on their walls, they want to see dick. People are going to be narked if they pay $15 and get access to one picture. This will push complaints up, and chargebacks, and once you hit a one percent chargeback ratio, which won't be hard for a single site, you'll probably get dumped by ccbill, but check their policies, don't take my word on it.

Even with thousands or millions of pictures, most websites are hard-pressed to retain a member beyond a couple of months.

Listen to the ccbill man.

Good luck
Dzinerbear

[EmporerEJ]

I honestly can't believe what I'm hearing.
You went to a billing processor to have them perform a function for you, and now you are changing your worth to what the billing processor "devalued" your product to? What makes him an expert?

You are obviously an artist. And while it may be expedient and "nice" to conform with every other website, it's not what you wanted to do.

You DO what you want to DO. If the market doesn't pay you for your service, you may have to adapt. Maybe your work isn't worth that in the marketplace, I don't know. Seems to me Anime type stuff is in high demand.
I know my company would be willing to buy licensing rights to some adult animated cartoons. But I'll be damned if a billing company is gonna tell ME how to run my business. I'm sure the guy was really trying to help you, but if he's so smart, then why isn't HE doing what you are doing?

Dzinerbear makes perfect business sense. It's all true. And back when Fred Smith got a "d" for his thesis on an overnight package delivery service, the "thinking" of the time is no one needed or wanted an overnight package service. years later, after Fred did what he wanted, we now see the results. Can any of you imagine NOT having FedEx type services?

When we wanted to manufacture our product the conventional thinking was "make it cheap in China and sell for a huge markup." That's what the rest of the industry did, and is still doing.
We decided to make in right here in the USA and use a different revenue model. 10 years later, we're still here, and owe no one.

Stick to what YOU believe is right. But keep an open mind.

[LavenderLounge]

I think you should re-think your business model.

People who join "membership" sites expect to see thousands of images - not 12. Even if you clearly state what you have before they join, nobody reads it. If they do understand you only have 12 images, they won't join. You'll find a LOT of refunds and chargebacks. If you exceed your chargeback limit, you're out of business.

ccBill has a side business called DRM Networks. Check that out. You can charge per image and it's encoded so it's more difficult to copy the image.

Before thinking about billing issues, what are your plans for preventing un-authorized use of your images? Its sad, but Titan Media probably spends more on pursueing copyright violations than they do on promotion.

[gaystoryman]

Hmm, maybe I am missing something here but I thought Ghaleon was trying to sell his pics and that it was ccBill rep who said he needed to set up a membership site?

I may be wrong, maybe ghalen can clear that up for me... i don't think he is setting up a paysite in the traditional sense but as a way to secure cc processing to sell the individual downloads of the art?

But hey its been a long morning...

just my pennies worth
Ian

[basschick]

you can easily have smaller versions of your pics in the member areas. just shrink them in photoshop.

but if you only have a few pics, it's probably best to give them a few days' access to download all the pics one time.

[Ghaleon]

Yes, my original plan was to charge for each picture. I didn't want to make a pay site at first since I didn't believe I have enough content. Plus it takes me a long time to finish a drawing: at least 8 hours. In adition to that, my projects tend to be now a series of several drawings, and in order to keep the characters consistent throughout the series, I can only release the entire series at once, further increasing the time it takes me to complete a project. See my work at www.gaybondageart.com and look at the "Violet Wand" series.

It was the ccBill rep's idea to make my site into a pay site. I thought of posting my work in progress after he told me to turn my site into a paysite in order to get it approved, just to give the customers a reason to come back. But honestly, why would anybody want to see work in progress? Like anybody else, I don't want to go out of business due to complaints and chargebacks.

If I don't go with ccBill because they don't like my business model, who can I go with? At first glance, DRM Networks seems awfully expensive and I don't know if I will sell enough drawings to justify its cost.

[basschick]

dude, you can't change $15 a pic for these - no one who understands what you are selling will pay it. i've seen other artists who charge per pic, but they're not drawings - they're framable color artwork.

why not just charge one time for downloading the entire set? you could have a newsletter and let people know when there are new pics to download - or series. then they could pay again and go download them.

[Lee]

Ghaleon,

I would have to agree with Basschicks hypothesis on your artwork.

Whilst i am sure there is a limited audience who will gladly pay for the works you have drawn the vast majority of surfers hitting your site, unfortunately wont.

Im by no means knocking your drawings (i personally cant draw for shit) but in the grander scale of things, unless you can offer your surfers / members more than a few images then you seriously wont make any money from them.

Regards,

Lee

[SexyMan]

I can't believe your trying to charge any money for these first grade drawings. I wouldn't want them if you were giving them away for free.

Do you honestly believe that your going to make money off that crap? I hate to come off strong but I see you have been spinning your wheels trying to get some cc processor to pick-up your account. They probably didn't want anything to do with those crappy drawings.

my 2 cents

[gaystoryman]

wow that's a bit harsh sexyman..

but Ghaleon I'd suggest you think on what Basschick said, made sense & might be worth the shot..

[Xstr8guy]

Originally posted by SexyMan
I can't believe your trying to charge any money for these first grade drawings. I wouldn't want them if you were giving them away for free.

Do you honestly believe that your going to make money off that crap? I hate to come off strong but I see you have been spinning your wheels trying to get some cc processor to pick-up your account. They probably didn't want anything to do with those crappy drawings.

my 2 cents

:honest: