"Holy men" unite in their hate against gay men

[Ben]

Somewhere towards the end of the page:

http://www.apollonetwork.com/main.html


Gays Marching to Jerusalem Con't Posted by: Ron
Saturday, April 2nd 2005 @ 07:49:50 AM EST


The situation in Jerusalem is religiously heating up over the planned August Gay Pride March. (See Changing Times on menu at left.) Jerusalem, contrary to all political and spiritual evidence, is considered holy by three world religions. These groups feel so strongly about the "holiness" of the city that they have actually joined together to talk, plan, and protest the coming gays. Christian evangelists from the US have joined them in their efforts.

Let's pause right here for an ironic moment. These three religious groups have never shown such solidarity over the hatred and bloodshed among their followers. Jerusalem has been the scene of bombings, rock throwing, and wars. They even built a wall to separate the combatants.

However, when the gays say they are coming to town, the religious leaders can join in harmonic unity to fight what one has called "very ugly and nasty." Apparently, bombing innocent people on buses and partying people in bars are not considered "very ugly and nasty." It's okay to kill men but not okay to accept men who love men.

Of course, the American evangelists are ever looking for a platform from which to preach their own kind of hatred for men who love men. Some are rushing to Jerusalem to preach and prattle before the television cameras.

The last time the Christians took possession of Jerusalem was the summer of 1099. It was called the First Crusade, and in a few short days, in the name of Jesus the Christians killed over 30,000 Jerusalemites -men, women, children, Jews and Arabs. There is something dark and deadly beneath the surface of people who claim holiness, even more so if these people are on a righteous crusade. Those who do not share their views are always in physical danger.

Being on their knees before their god apparently has not removed hatred and prejudices from so called holy men. Maybe they can learn something from gay people who go to their knees for an entirely different reason.

----------------------------------

I never quite understood this mutual understanding of "the pious" when it comes to gay people.

Over the years I've come to the point where I can dismiss someone's claims or arguments (even if they're not related to sexuality) only if I hear that he/she hates gay people. It has always worked perfectly. :karate:

[Lee]

What i dont understand more than that is..

Last year something similar happened when Jerusalem held their gay pride, why cant the gay community learn from the past so it doesnt get repeated?

How many of those going to the gay pride will be killed this year because they didnt take heed to what happened at last years pride march?

Regards,

Lee

[Scorpio]

That kinda prove there are idiots in both parties. And God knows we have our share!

[Squirt]

What i dont understand more than that is..

Last year something similar happened when Jerusalem held their gay pride, why cant the gay community learn from the past so it doesnt get repeated?

How many of those going to the gay pride will be killed this year because they didnt take heed to what happened at last years pride march?

It's unfortunate that some feel so strongly about their rights and freedoms, while others in their minority just sit back and want them to be silent. It's just as bad as being part of the religious groups who want to silence them.

I suppose when I had my court case and they wanted to take my son away from me, a Gay father, I should have been quiet for you Lee and not made a fuss?

It seems any time there is a post on here about people standing up for Gay rights, whether it's marriage, or this Gay pride march, or other Gay rights issues, you always want everyone to be silent. Why? Why don't support those who are proud of who they are and fight for what they believe in? And I'm not talking just about dying in Jerusalem for Gay rights.

[Lee]

It's unfortunate that some feel so strongly about their rights and freedoms, while others in their minority just sit back and want them to be silent. It's just as bad as being part of the religious groups who want to silence them.

I suppose when I had my court case and they wanted to take my son away from me, a Gay father, I should have been quiet for you Lee and not made a fuss?

It seems any time there is a post on here about people standing up for Gay rights, whether it's marriage, or this Gay pride march, or other Gay rights issues, you always want everyone to be silent. Why? Why don't support those who are proud of who they are and fight for what they believe in? And I'm not talking just about dying in Jerusalem for Gay rights.

Squirt,

So what you are saying is that you wouldnt mind going to a place where you KNOW that people were killed (12 months ago) doing something that you were going to be doing?

Im sorry, i dont care whether its for Gay Pride, a birthday, a wedding, whatever, i wouldnt go somewhere knowing that i had a higher than average chance of being killed.

It just doesnt make sense to me to endanger myself.

Take the 'gay' thing out of this for a moment and think about it, would you still go to a place where you KNOW your chances of being killed are dramatically increased?

Regards,

Lee

[JustMe]

Greetings:

It just doesnt make sense to me to endanger myself.

Take the 'gay' thing out of this for a moment and think about it, would you still go to a place where you KNOW your chances of being killed are dramatically increased?

Some people feel strongly enough about their convictions that they're willing to make great sacrifices to defend them. Good thing more people don't think the way you do Lee, or black people would still be slaves in this country.

[Lee]

Some people feel strongly enough about their convictions that they're willing to make great sacrifices to defend them.

I do feel strongly on many things and yes, for some of my beleifs i would die to uphold them if the need arose however, im not a big fan of those in the pro-gay group who constantly force 'our' beleifs on others.

Actually, thinking about, who said anyone could speak on my behalf in the gay community as a whole? I certainly dont remember signing my right to an opinion on things such as Gay Pride, Gay Marriage, etc etc.

Personally, it wouldnt bother me one bit if there was never another Gay Pride or debate on the Gay Marriage issue. Im fed up of being told by the pro-gay right-wing that gay marriage is something we 'all' want, strangely enough, there are those of us who think getting a peice of paper saying im legally married is way down on the list, below things such as protecting the environment, protecting children online, ensuring the elderly can afford medication that they need to live, making sure homeless kids get off the streets and, more importantly, making sure everyone gets the education they have a right to. Whats the point of allowing same sex couples to marry if both partners are dumb as a rock?

Rather than arguing the semantics of issues that really dont have a whole lot of effect on many around the world or the US lets focus our efforts on those things that do matter in the immediate future, like making sure we can all breathe the air without worrying if anything in it is going to rot our lungs away.

What would have happened if the 'gay marriage' debate wasnt such a focal point during the last election? Perhaps some more important matters would have been bought up and not just whether two guys or two women can have a peice of paper to prove their love for one another.

Regards,

Lee

[JustMe]

Greetings:

Lee, your comments sound like little more than a bunch of ramblings from a man that hasn't taken the time to understand the issues that he's attempting to speak about.

Whats the point of allowing same sex couples to marry if both partners are dumb as a rock?

What in the hell does this have to do with anything? Dumb people aren't allowed to love each other now? Unfortunately not everyone can be as "intelligent" as you obviously are Lee....

I certainly dont remember signing my right to an opinion on things such as Gay Pride

Yes, we all know that having pride in oneself is just a horrible thing.

Pride marches are about making our place in the community known. It's no different than similar marches held by any other interest group in our country, and are certainly nothing that anyone should be ashamed of.

Perhaps some more important matters would have been bought up and not just whether two guys or two women can have a peice of paper to prove their love for one another.

Again, you're showing a total lack of understanding in two key areas:

1. A marriage license isn't about proving love, it's about being granted the over 1,200 legal rights and protections that come along with said piece of paper. Do you expect congress to specifically update each and every one of those 1,200 laws to project homosexual couples? No. The only realistic way to achieve those protections is through marriage.

2. As for the political issues. As someone that's been active in the Democratic Party for over a decade, including donating tens of thousands of dollars to the DNC, working for Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign, and designing the network for President Clinton's NY home, I can tell you it was NOT the Democrats that brought gay marriage into the last presidential debate. It was the REPUBLICANS who brought the issue into the campaign, in hopes of rallying their conservative base. A tactic that you can thank Bush's buddy Carl Rove for.


You seem to forget Lee, that it wasn't that many years ago that Gays were being mass exterminated, their bodies being fed into the same ovens as the Jews. In parts of the world today, Gays are still being executed on a regular basis by governments.

In our own country, we lack even some of the most basic human rights, including the open pursuit of happiness. Conservative groups are rallying to deny us of even more.

Now is not the time to take a lackadaisical attitude about such things. At the very least, you shouldn't be criticizing those that work hard and make sacrifices to make the each of our lives better....

[Lee]

What in the hell does this have to do with anything? Dumb people aren't allowed to love each other now? Unfortunately not everyone can be as "intelligent" as you obviously are Lee....

LOL my point was, educating people, is more important IMHO than telling someone who they can and cant marry. Lets work out the larger problems in the world today rather than bicker over the things that, in reality, only affect a small amount of the general populous. Whereas, education, healthcare, affect EVERYONE, black or white, male or female, gay or straight. Why isnt that being debated at a cost of millions/billions instead of the gay marriage issue?

Yes, we all know that having pride in oneself is just a horrible thing.

Pride marches are about making our place in the community known. It's no different that similar marches held by any other interest group in our country, and are certainly nothing that anyone should be ashamed of.

Having pride in ones self is definately not a horrible thing and id never say it was however, there is having pride in ones self and letting others know we exist in the community and there is forcing our 'lifestyle' on others which, lets be honest, to some extent, Pride celebrations do, whether we like it or not. When is the next Straight Pride celebration out of interest?

1. A marriage license isn't about proving love, it's about being granted the over 1,200 legal rights and protections that come along with said piece of paper. Do you expect congress to specifically update each and every one of those 1,200 laws to project homosexual couples? No. The only realistic way to achieve those protections is through marriage.

Its about getting a 'peice of paper' and Yes. i do expect congress to update each and every one of those laws to protect same sex couples, only when those laws are updated will we become 'equal' which, if im not mistaken is what this whole gay marriage issue is about, instead of fighting about gay marriage and turning that into a big issue, why not just say, we want to be equal in everything, not just gay marriage.. Gay marriage is being used a tool by the pro-gay right to get what THEY want, not what everyone wants.

2. As for the political issues. As someone that's been active in the Democratic Party for over a decade, including donating tens of thousands of dollars to the DNC, working for Hillary Clinton's Senate Campaign, and designing the network for President Clinton's NY home, I can tell you it was NOT the Democrats that brought gay marriage into the last presidential debate. It was the REPUBLICANS who brought the issue into the campaign, in hopes of rallying their conservative base. A tactic that you can thank Bush's buddy Carl Rove for.

It was neither of the two parties you mentioned, in fact, it wasnt even a political party, it was the pro-gay groups who act on behalf of 'everyone' whether 'everyone' wants them to or not.

You seem to forget Lee, that it wasn't that many years ago that Gays were being mass exterminated, their bodies being fed into the same ovens as the Jews. In parts of the world today, Gays are still being executed on a regular basis by governments.

How do you manage to compare the atrocities that Hitler carried out to the gay marriage issue? Its not even close to the issue in any way. Hitler was a nutjob, he killed people who didnt 'fit' his master plan en mass, regardless of who the slept with, what religion they were, what color they were, how able bodied they were. We're talking about one demographic in the gay marriage issue, same sex couples, not many demographics.

In our own country, we lack even some of the most basic human rights

Thats exactly my point, lets get the basic shit sorted out before tackling the harder issues.

you shouldn't be criticizing those that work hard and make sacrifices to make the each of our lives better

Ah i forgot, we're just supposed to sit back and be good little peons. We arent supposed to question 'authority' instead we should do what we are told, when we are told because, after all, everything is done for 'good' reasons.

Please pass me the rose tinted glasses you are wearing.

Lets also not forget, the government told us that to have a national health service would cost in the region of what? Lets say $25 billion for the sake of argument. How much do you think has been spent in the last 12 months in government funding on the gay marriage issue? $5 billion? $6 billion? $7billion? More?

See anything strange there? 'We' have spent more debating the gay marriage issue in the last year than it would have cost for almost half the population to have free health care.

We have probably spent over $200 billion+ on a war that wasnt needed, how many new hospitals or schools could that money have built?

Tell me thats not fucked up?

But lets not question those who fight for our rights, they are right all of the time after all.

Regards,

Lee

[JustMe]

Greetings:

there is forcing our 'lifestyle' on others which, lets be honest, to some extent, Pride celebrations do, whether we like it or not. When is the next Straight Pride celebration out of interest?

There are celebrations for all sorts of things every day in this country. Gay people have such demonstrations for the same reasons that black people did during their battle for civil rights. And no, we're not trying to force our "lifestyle" on other people. We're trying to force our right to have that lifestyle for ourselves.

Lets also not forget, the government told us that to have a national health service would cost in the region of what? Lets say $25 billion for the sake of argument. How much do you think has been spent in the last 12 months in government funding on the gay marriage issue? $5 billion? $6 billion? $7billion? More?

See anything strange there? 'We' have spent more debating the gay marriage issue in the last year than it would have cost for almost half the population to have free health care.

What strange little world do you live in? The money spent lobbying for gay rights in this country is NO WHERE EVEN CLOSE NOT EVEN A LITTLE TINY BIT OF ANYWHERE NEAR A SMALL PERCENTAGE a BILLION DOLLARS, much less 5 billion or more?!?!

Try a few MILLION dollars a year. In fact, more money is spent every year by the NRA defending the production and sale of Cop Killer Bullets in this country than is spent by all of the gay lobby groups COMBINED.

Lets work out the larger problems in the world today rather than bicker over the things that, in reality, only affect a small amount of the general populous.

Some people are intelligent enough to think about more than 1 thing at a time.

Certainly, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think our government was designed in such a way that it's capable of tackling more than 1 legislative agenda at any given time. I think that's why we have "departments" in the government, and also think that's probably why our country is run by more than 1 person.

Just because Gay Rights are discussed, doesn't mean that it's taking the place of other issues, such as Healthcare, the Environment, etc. All of those issues were discussed at length in the last election.

i do expect congress to update each and every one of those laws to protect same sex couples

So you don't want gays to be able to get married, you want our own special little subsection written into 1,200 laws. How very practical.

I shun any gay person that says we shouldn't have marriage, but should have our own thing such as "domestic partnerships".

The United States Supreme Court said it best when they outlawed segregation: Separate is NEVER equal.

[Squirt]

I do feel strongly on many things and yes, for some of my beleifs i would die to uphold them if the need arose however, im not a big fan of those in the pro-gay group who constantly force 'our' beleifs on others.

This is what I don't understand. I don't understand how making a statement about our lack of rights is forcing "our" beliefs on others. The constitution was written for all Americans and states "All men are created equal". That's not a Gay agenda, or "our" beliefs, it's the beliefs of the American people and what America was founded on. Unfortunately, in any society, your rights will be trampled on if you don't go public with your case. It's called oppression.

Your reaction to those who just want to be equal to everyone else is not unheard of. Some blacks wanted to keep quiet, not cause a problem, and keep things safe and routine. Some women liked things the way they were, not being able to goto school, work, vote, have a home of their own. Some Gays want to be anonymous and not have to face the real issues of being Gay until they are forced to, when a partner dies or is injured, when corporate law doesn't cover your ass, etc. This is short cited. The issues of our community are, by default, all of our issues. We have to work together to be treated equally.

Why don't you believe Gays should be treated equally to heterosexuals?

Having pride in ones self is definitely not a horrible thing and id never say it was however, there is having pride in ones self and letting others know we exist in the community and there is forcing our 'lifestyle' on others which, lets be honest, to some extent, Pride celebrations do, whether we like it or not. When is the next Straight Pride celebration out of interest?

Being a minority means we are different. The Gay community is diverse. There are aspects of the gay community, like the straight community, we'd all like to forget, but we can't.

Equality is all I want. It's all most Gay people want. Why is it wrong to want to be equal? How can you demand your rights without speaking? How can you show support without being counted? Being in the woodwork is exactly what has hurt our community in the past, and we've learned that. Now we know that we have to be visible for people to know we exist and stop the oppression.

The constitution grants equality to all and the right to pursue happiness and I'll be damned if I'm going to give that up for anyone who thinks they deserve it more then we do. It's not a privilege in America to be equal, it's a right!

[basschick]

you know what? i DON'T care about anything enough to get killed for it. what good would it do me then?

i believe in education. period. you can force someone to do what you want with guns, but once you're not babysitting him/her, they'll go back to doing what they were doing.

put myself into a place where i'm likely to die, hoping that i'll be a martyr to a cause? nope! i'd rather change minds when i can by how i live, not because i died.

[Lee]

There are celebrations for all sorts of things every day in this country. Gay people have such demonstrations for the same reasons that black people did during their battle for civil rights. And no, we're not trying to force our "lifestyle" on other people. We're trying to force our right to have that lifestyle for ourselves.

However YOU look at things, others will take a different view. For every right or wrong move, there will be a move int he opposite direction, living in a free country means we all have free will to do, act, think how we like. Just because you or i dont think we are forcing our lifestyle on others, that doesnt mean OTHERS dont think we are. Wake up and smell the roses, the reason the US is having the gay marriage debate right now is solely for the reasons i have stated. Others, beleive that by allowing same sex couples the right to marry, it is going to have a knock on effect to them, whether they are right or wrong, that is their opinion / beleif and they are as entitled to it as you or i are, even if they may seem crazy to you or i. Ill never deny anyone the right to their opinion, even if i do think their viewpoint is wrong. Im just trying to show you that for every positive view we have, there is a negative somewhere else.

What strange little world do you live in? The money spent lobbying for gay rights in this country is NO WHERE EVEN CLOSE NOT EVEN A LITTLE TINY BIT OF ANYWHERE NEAR A SMALL PERCENTAGE a BILLION DOLLARS, much less 5 billion or more?!?!

Are you quite sure about that? How much do you think it costs the government to sit in session for an hour? 10's of thousands of dollars. How much has been raised by charity drives for the UCLA who are now in this debate? Millions. Just because you dont see the bigger picture, doesnt mean that billions havent been spent, somewhere at the tax payers expense.

My point is this, for every governmental debate on the issue, for every 'white paper' that gets drawn up, for every speech on the subject the President makes, that costs money... LOTS of it.

Try a few MILLION dollars a year. In fact, more money is spent every year by the NRA defending the production and sale of Cop Killer Bullets in this country than is spent by all of the gay lobby groups COMBINED.

What does what a privately funded organization have to do with how much a government spends? Again you are throwing things into this debate that have no place in it, much like your previous Hitler statement.

Some people are intelligent enough to think about more than 1 thing at a time.

They are? So why wasnt homelessness tacked during the last election? Why wasnt health care made as much of an issue as gay marriage was? Im sorry to say that yes, whilst most people can think about more than one thing at a time, the VAST majority of the American public are blind sided by politial rhetoric and spin doctoring. I dont recall the issue of pulling homeless children off the streets being added to any of the electoral ballots yet, as i recall, whether or not same sex couples can marry was.

Just because Gay Rights are discussed, doesn't mean that it's taking the place of other issues, such as Healthcare, the Environment, etc. All of those issues were discussed at length in the last election.

You are correct they were discussed but, not as much as the gay marriage issue was

So you don't want gays to be able to get married, you want our own special little subsection written into 1,200 laws. How very practical.

Where at all did i say i didnt want same sex couples to be able to marry? Again you are putting words into my mouth that simply dont belong there. Yes. i do beleive same sex couples should have the exact same rights as hetrosexual couples have however, i dont beleive this issue should take precident over much greater issues that effect EVERYONE not just a small segment of the worlds population.

Again, lets allow same sex couples to marry but, lets do nothig about global warming or cancer, or aids, or any of the other hundred thousand issues that, like it or not, ARE more important in the world.

I shun any gay person that says we shouldn't have marriage, but should have our own thing such as "domestic partnerships".

Domestic partnership, if it gives the EXACT same rights as marriage would but under a different name is great as far as i am concerned. I mean, after all, we're looking for 'equality' correct? Or, are we looking for something religious now too? Sorry you are confusing me with your contradicting statements, one second its about equality, the next its about 'marriage' the next its about the law. Which one is it? Can we decide which of the three things above it is about please. Oh hang on, no we cant because its about something different for everyone, there i go again living in a free country where i can think and act for myself without being told what i must and mustnt think about certain things.

Just because for YOU it is about, equality, marriage or laws, that doesnt mean it is about that for everyone else. Dont force your beleifs on me and i wont force mine on you

The United States Supreme Court said it best when they outlawed segregation: Separate is NEVER equal.

There you go again bringing something in to the debate that doesnt need to be. It kind of makes you wonder exactly how many different views there are on what the gay marriage debate is all about, religion, politics, equality, laws, anything else we can throw into the mix?

Regards,

Lee

[Squirt]

..nope! i'd rather change minds when i can by how i live, not because i died.

I live be example as well. I'm not a role model, but by being out (not in peoples face). Lead by example.

Unfortunately though, there come times when action is needed. Just like laws. Laws are enforced two ways, by education, so people know the law and by physical enforcement, getting tickets etc.

Just like all the online downloading. People knew it was wrong, but did it anyway because lack of enforcement gave the impression it was accepted. Once the downloaders started getting sued, people stopped the activity.

It's the same with equal rights. Yes our constitution states that "all men are created equal" but the lack of enforcement of our constitution in that area, gives the impression that it's ok to discirminate against minorities and Gays, it's not. When we speak out publicly and legally about the injustice, the courts support us, the laws are enforced, and our rights are asserted.

Just as one federal judge recently said, "Just because a form of discrimination has been accepted, doesn't mean it's right, or in line with the constitution."

[Lee]

Why don't you believe Gays should be treated equally to heterosexuals?

What are you talking about? Please point out exactly where i said that anywhere above.

Being a minority means we are different.

Hang on a second, we are different but we want equal rights? Something doesnt sound right there. Surely because we are different we should have different laws to everyone else? I mean, lets not just stop at gay marriage, lets have new laws for everything just because we are gay.

Im sorry but I am not a minority. You may be but i certainly am not.

Equality is all I want. It's all most Gay people want. Why is it wrong to want to be equal? How can you demand your rights without speaking? How can you show support without being counted? Being in the woodwork is exactly what has hurt our community in the past, and we've learned that. Now we know that we have to be visible for people to know we exist and stop the oppression.

Squirt, you seem to be under some dillusion or illusion that people actually care. Reality check, the vast majority of people in the world, really dont. You rminority may do but, i can guarantee you that more people care about their health than whether or not same sex couples can marry.

The constitution grants equality to all and the right to pursue happiness and I'll be damned if I'm going to give that up for anyone who thinks they deserve it more then we do. It's not a privilege in America to be equal, it's a right!

Hang on a second. Where did the constitution come in to this? Now you are just thinking logically.

Regards,

Lee