Derogatory use of the word "gay"

[CorbinFisher_BD]

I'm really not sure there's much if any intentional thought to offend when someone uses that phrase.

I'm not saying that means someone can't find themselves offended or hurt when hearing it.

I just don't see a person making it a point to take a stab at gay people when they say something like "That's gay!".

It's just became part of the modern day vernacular.

So, whereas I think someone's entitled to be offended when they hear someone exclaim "that's so gay!" because the negative roots of that phrase are obvious, I don't think it'd do much good to get too worked up over it. Just about every ethnicity and minority and group has dealt with it.

Ever welshed on a bet? Ever known an indian giver? Ever gone dutch on a date? Heard someone say "That's white of you"? Ever had an appliance that was "on the fritz"? Ever followed a swear with "pardon my French"?

Each of those phrases originated from one group of people having a negative perception of another group of people. As offensive as they are and were when they originated, the plain truth of the matter is they're such common parts of today's language that no one really thinks of the origins anymore. When someone says "pardon my French" no one really thinks of what the French have to do with that swear word or think to themselves "Ugh. Those foul-mouthed French!".

"That's so gay" will end up just like the rest of those phrases. Not very flattering, and still bound to offend some. But an integrated part of the vernacular that really has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with gay people but instead holds its own meaning unto itself and neither demonstrates in the user nor inspires in those hearing it a negative thought about homosexuals.

[DonMike]

I guess at 36 I'm just an old fart. Being gay I hate it when someone uses the word "gay" to mean stupid or bad. It's just that simple.

[Jasun]

I just don't see a person making it a point to take a stab at gay people when they say something like "That's gay!".

It's just became part of the modern day vernacular.

Great.

You go say "******" in Compton and then tell them that it's just "The modern day vernacular". I'm sure they're going to agree.

Why is it that the gay community.. er.. some of them anyway.. are willing to take being hit with words and defend the people who use them?

I never let anyone get away with that shit around me. Even if they use it in a joking way.. I'll let them know.

I'm not overly agressive.. when someone says "That's so gay" or "You cock sucker", I generally say something back like "You say that like it's a bad thing".

they get the point. I hope you do too.

[DonMike]

I've written about this before, but I think I should bring it up again. I had a roommate some years ago, shortly after coming out, who was always making little snide remarks about me being gay. Him and his girlfriend would say "oh that's gay" all the time. He would call me fag or homo, but always in a "I'm only joking" sort of way. I was so concerned with people accepting me as a gay man that I went out of my way to make sure they knew they did not have to censor themselves around me and that they could joke freely. Did that build respect? No, it actually brought about just the opposite. The attitude I ended up getting from this guy was "hey, I can make fun of this stupid fag to his face and he don't even get mad". His "meaningless" phrases soon took a much darker tone and I went from being his "faggy friend" to being called cocksucker, faggot and all kinds of other things, which I took with a whole bottle of salt because I wanted to prove to him that it didn't bother me. So even though we started out as getting along pretty well, I finally got really tired of being treated like I wasn't even human or didn't have any feelings at all.

And Patti is right. Calling a man by the term "girl" when you feel he is less than a man means you do not think very highly of women. What does it mean when you call someone "gay" whom you feel is stupid and worthless?

[CorbinFisher_BD]

Great.

You go say "******" in Compton and then tell them that it's just "The modern day vernacular". I'm sure they're going to agree.

Why is it that the gay community.. er.. some of them anyway.. are willing to take being hit with words and defend the people who use them?

I never let anyone get away with that shit around me. Even if they use it in a joking way.. I'll let them know.

I'm not overly agressive.. when someone says "That's so gay" or "You cock sucker", I generally say something back like "You say that like it's a bad thing".

they get the point. I hope you do too.

I'm not sure how your ****** example applies here. In fact, I'd say it doesn't.

Within modern vernacular, "******" is an extremely offensive word. In fact, probably the most offensive word in the English language. There's no doubt it is offensive. And so even its role within modern vernacular doesn't allow for me to go around using it against anyone.

I do think "******" is an interesting word, though. And I'm glad you brought it up. Whenever there's a discussion on offensive words and phrases someone always pulls out the "****** card" to try and make a point. Just like someone always plays the "hitler/nazi" card when discussing politics or social policy.

"******" didn't really become an offensive word until this last century. Although it wasn't quite appropriate for social conversation, its understood meanings even allowed for it to appear in Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn without anyone, at the time, thinking much of it or thinking of it as all too offensive.

In the 17th century anti-slavery organizations would use the word "******" in their literature as just a standard word to apply to black Africans. It wasn't an insult.

But it has since become one, evolving in to one of the least pleasant words in the English language and one over which people get more defensive and to which they're more sensitive than just about any other. Thus why you used it as an example here, although your example didn't really apply too well.

Regardless, modern vernacular. The meaning and usage of the word "******" has changed over time. Just as "That's so gay!" will. Just as "fag" has and "queer" has and will.

"Queer" was eagerly adopted by men in the early 20th century who wanted to differentiate themselves from effeminite and showy homosexual men who were called "fairies" and "queens". So even the origins of "queer" with relation to gay men was kind of a "self-hating" thing, if you wanna call it that. And then it became an insult directed at all gay men. And then it became a word the entire gay community embraced as almost a mark of pride. Again, the evolution of language and vernacular.

I ask again... does anything think when someone says "pardon my French" of how that phrase originated from the perception that the French were vulgar and obscene and thus their affiliation with the swear word just spoken?

When you go "dutch treat" on a date does anyone think of how the English viewed the Dutch as cheap and stingy and that's where that phrase comes from?

When you hear of someone welshing on a bet do you think of how the perception of the welsh was that they'd run up huge gambling debts - especially at dog and horse tracks - and not repay them?

Because those are the origins of those phrases, but no one really ties the group at the root of those phrases to their meaning today. The phrases themselves have taken on a meaning of their own independent of the group offense was directed towards when they were first created and became a part of the vernacular.

Again, you're entitled to feel offended and more than welcome to it. But quite frankly I have better things to do with my day than sit around finding reason to take offense at what other people do. And when a young person says something like "that's so gay" and I don't see in their statement any intent to hurt me or even an understanding on their part of where and how that phrase originated and what's implied through it, I could really care less.

[longboardjim]

i acutally use the phrase "that is so gay" in reference to what the gay community is typographicaly identified as but then i'm gay so i don't see the harm at poking fun at myself.
i also use the term "that is so hetero" ( usually when i'm straight establishment with a moosehead over the bar draped in bra's and panties ) of course i'm usually speaking with gay friends.

sincerely ~ ..."there are worse things i could do" - grease

[Jasun]

There's obviously difrferent ways to use the term "that's so gay".

When we're talking about Capri Pants, Malibu Ken or Madonna records, yes.. it's ok to use the term.. you're saying "That's so homosexual".

If you're meaning "that's so lame, weak or bad", well.. I don't let that get past me.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

There's obviously difrferent ways to use the term "that's so gay".

When we're talking about Capri Pants, Malibu Ken or Madonna records, yes.. it's ok to use the term.. you're saying "That's so homosexual".

If you're meaning "that's so lame, weak or bad", well.. I don't let that get past me.

I think there's nothing wrong with pointing that out to someone when they use it. In fact it's probably a good thing to do that when in the company of someone who uses the phrase and isn't aware of how it could be received and cause hurt.

"Hey, just so ya know, that saying has real potential to offend. I'd appreciate your not using it around me" or something along those lines. Whatever the situation dictates.

But I think in that a person can afford to be made aware of that and have it pointed out to them is also the evidence that they weren't conciously aware of its potentially offensive nature when using it. The intent to hurt wasn't there and spite wasn't intended through their use of it.

And that's where the discussion of vernacular comes in. How is it this term has become commonplace, and where does it go from there? And I think that denying the role of popular culture in the development of vernacular and denying the existence of contemporary vernacular in the first place doesn't do anyone any good.

That's why I don't get offended when I hear someone use it. I recognize it as a saying that can offend. But I personally do not get offended unless I see true intent to offend and be hurtful on the part of the user.

[jIgG]

lets not forget some of these people call women in adult bitches and whores who are nothing more than a piece of ass willing to work for little money to satisfy someone's dick.

[Paco]

I consider words to be very powerful tools, so I am not the type that simply shrugs them off (unless it is some idiot spewing at the gums, whom I merely look down at, with pity) - many people chose their words carefully and use specific ones for a reason.

Certain types of people evaluate words used by another (friends, enemies, family etc) and take them in a literal fashion or 'hang on every word'. Some people chose their words as they would a weapon (severity of damage).
Now what makes them different from using your fists (aside from the visible marks)?
Are mental wounds not more detrimental or damaging than physical ones?

So to me, a person using the word gay (whether or not) is no different from them using the word fag, ******, homo, girlie/femme/like a girl, Jew, Indian, commi, wop etc.
All are an unnecessary classifications and abusive words, which are stereotypical.



One question: when one says that's so gay, what do they mean?

To me, gay means licentious, happy and sometimes refers to relations between two-people of the same sex.

[procam]

I'm not sure how your ****** example applies here. In fact, I'd say it doesn't.

Within modern vernacular, "******" is an extremely offensive word. In fact, probably the most offensive word in the English language. There's no doubt it is offensive. And so even its role within modern vernacular doesn't allow for me to go around using it against anyone.

I do think "******" is an interesting word, though. And I'm glad you brought it up. Whenever there's a discussion on offensive words and phrases someone always pulls out the "****** card" to try and make a point. Just like someone always plays the "hitler/nazi" card when discussing politics or social policy.

"******" didn't really become an offensive word until this last century. Although it wasn't quite appropriate for social conversation, its understood meanings even allowed for it to appear in Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn without anyone, at the time, thinking much of it or thinking of it as all too offensive.

In the 17th century anti-slavery organizations would use the word "******" in their literature as just a standard word to apply to black Africans. It wasn't an insult.

But it has since become one, evolving in to one of the least pleasant words in the English language and one over which people get more defensive and to which they're more sensitive than just about any other. Thus why you used it as an example here, although your example didn't really apply too well.

Regardless, modern vernacular. The meaning and usage of the word "******" has changed over time. Just as "That's so gay!" will. Just as "fag" has and "queer" has and will.

"Queer" was eagerly adopted by men in the early 20th century who wanted to differentiate themselves from effeminite and showy homosexual men who were called "fairies" and "queens". So even the origins of "queer" with relation to gay men was kind of a "self-hating" thing, if you wanna call it that. And then it became an insult directed at all gay men. And then it became a word the entire gay community embraced as almost a mark of pride. Again, the evolution of language and vernacular.

I ask again... does anything think when someone says "pardon my French" of how that phrase originated from the perception that the French were vulgar and obscene and thus their affiliation with the swear word just spoken?

When you go "dutch treat" on a date does anyone think of how the English viewed the Dutch as cheap and stingy and that's where that phrase comes from?

When you hear of someone welshing on a bet do you think of how the perception of the welsh was that they'd run up huge gambling debts - especially at dog and horse tracks - and not repay them?

Because those are the origins of those phrases, but no one really ties the group at the root of those phrases to their meaning today. The phrases themselves have taken on a meaning of their own independent of the group offense was directed towards when they were first created and became a part of the vernacular.

Again, you're entitled to feel offended and more than welcome to it. But quite frankly I have better things to do with my day than sit around finding reason to take offense at what other people do. And when a young person says something like "that's so gay" and I don't see in their statement any intent to hurt me or even an understanding on their part of where and how that phrase originated and what's implied through it, I could really care less.

You are so wrong~ I hear people use the word ****** everyday in general conversation anymore~ The word ****** is more comonly used in day to day conversation than the word gay now~ and I do not believe that was WAY off in using it for comparison - I personally dont like either word used in a hurtful way towards someone BUT........ on the other hand some folks are just too damn sensitive about words- If the word "Gay" is so offensive to you perhaps you should kick yer bf out and call one of the girls from work for a hot muff divin session tonite!! :wtf:

Its funny to me I hear a gay person use the word faggot against another gay person - and a black person call another black person a ****** -
But it calls for 20 hail marys if you use a word wrong in front of either of em - suddenly they are OFFENDED ~

[CorbinFisher_BD]

You are so wrong~ I hear people use the word ****** everyday in general conversation anymore~ The word ****** is more comonly used in day to day conversation than the word gay now~

That you hear people use it everyday just illustrates my point all the more.

The connotations of words and what they mean to the people speaking and hearing them and how they fit in to modern vernacular is more important that the word itself.

You hear people use "******" all the time, apparently. In what context?

Delivered in spite and in a pejorative sense, I seriously doubt there's any word in the entire English language considered to be more offensive than "******".

But at the same time, it's commonly used as an expression of familiarity and kinship between black people.

Regardless, delivered in a belittling manner, "******" is probably the most offensive word there is. And universally recognized as such. I think you'd be hardpressed to suggest another word that would be generally viewed as being as offensive as "******". Though feel free to offer up suggestions.

Why I didn't think Jasun's example of me calling people niggers in Compton applied was because it was a straw man argument to the point I was making. That's how I viewed it, at least. Me saying that I believe that variance in connotation and denotation exist within the vernacular does not mean I feel you can intentionally insult and offend others and do so out of spite and hate and then try and deflect condemnation for doing so by saying "Oh it's just the vernacular!", which is what I think he was saying I tried to suggest. Maybe I misinterpreted him, but I saw it as a straw man argument.

[procam]

Color me happy but you must be part African American yourself to be making such a bold stance on this -
I personally dont find being a white person that if a black person calls me a cracker craka - white trash - honky or any other racial slur any less offensive than the word ****** - I dont like any of them but I sure dont get all bent up about it if someone selects that word for use on me.

And to make it even worse - the word ****** if used by a white person is grounds for fighting material - how many white people do you know willing to put a knife in someone for calling them a craka or a honky or white trash ~

I think I made my point~

Why cant everyone just treat everyone good~ abolish all religions on the planet and dispell all racial and sexual orientation issues and just LIVE!! The world would be a much better place~:penny:

[basschick]

no white person i've ever met gets as offended by being called cracker or honky - because those words never had the same power. i have met a fair amount of white people who have never even heard those terms. sadly i expect that there are VERY few gay men who haven't heard the word "faggot" or black people who haven't heard the word "******". those words have been used against them as a harmful weapon for many decades.