Derogatory use of the word "gay"

[DonMike]

Steve, I have to disagree with you. Letting people talk down to you just so they will accept you is the problem gay people have in society these days. The power behind the phrase "you're so gay" is that the person saying it knows that it could hurt gay people but doesn't care. We are not worthy enough for our feelings not to be hurt. Would those same people ever use ethnic slanders in that same manner? No, because they know it would be socially unacceptable. But it's fine to use a gay slander that way. Why is that?

Your post reminds me of this friend I have who always says "I don't need to tell people I'm gay, I'm not defined by my sexuality". What does that mean? People are defined by their sexuality every day. Every time someone talks about a wedding or anniversary they are wearing their sexuality on their sleeve, every time two people hold hands in public or kiss, they are making a statement. Everyone who has pics of thier families on their desk or show you snapshots of their partners on their cell phones or Palm Pilots they are doing it. And to be gay and refrain from doing these things means you are somehow less than the straight people around you who do. I wish we lived in a society where these things didn't matter, but they do. And until everyone has the right to marry, hold a job, not be beaten on the street with no legal protection, and has the same civil rights, we have to stand up for ourselves.

You dehumanize people by using demeaning words and phrases (even in a careless manner without intent do to so), and if you belittle a group of people enough then it won't seem important anymore if they have rights or not. That is the power of words, my friend. And yes, they are quite powerful indeed.

[desslock]

Letting people demean you is not at all what I mean by my post. And also don't confuse what I say with an idea that you should hide your gay identity.

What if someone is using this terminology, but their intention is not to slander?

You know, religious right people never use the word gay. If you watch Jerry Falwell or others, they always refer to us as "homosexuals." Never as gay. Why is that not a potentially heavier slander, particularly if they are implying that being gay is a chosen lifestyle, and not an identity?

And I would say that their use of the word homosexual in the context of advocating the idea as us as second class citizens in public is potentially worse then some kid shooting off at the mouth with stuff they don't understand.

On the other hand I have seen Tim Russert on Meet the Press and Jim Lehrer on the PBS Newshour also use the term homosexuals as opposed to gays in their news broadcasts. I always like watching people and their choice of words.

I guess this shows that ten different gay people can have ten completely different temperatures in reactions to the word. I'll tell you, what gets me flying off the handle more is when a straight person uses the word "lifestyle" in a conversation about gay rights. Several years ago, I participated in a Lobby Day in Washington DC, and this Congressman, who was trying to be ingratiating, used the lifestyle word while talking. I thought my friend next to me was going to lunge across the table at him and choke him with his tie. He didn't lunge, but he did interrupt him with a "it is not a lifestyle, sir.... it is who I am and please don't patronize me" speech that made for a memorable moment.

Certain words can really flip switches.

I guess I am saying that I am very hesitant to determine what someone ought or ought not to say.

Steve

[XXXWriterDude]

Letting people demean you is not at all what I mean by my post. And also don't confuse what I say with an idea that you should hide your gay identity.

What if someone is using this terminology, but their intention is not to slander?

But the intention is not the issue; it's the outcome of using the word at all that is the issue here. Obviously, when people say "that's so gay" they (usually) don't mean to demean gay people. But that doesn't make it OK.

My argument about this issue is that the word "gay" was never used in a bad way until homosexuality became a social phenomenon. Before gay people, "gay" meant happy and exuberant and joyful. Then, post Stonewall, "gay" became a negative terminology.

Using this terminology around children especially teaches them that "gay" is a bad thing. REGARDLESS of the intent behind the term, it sends a message that "gay" is not cool. So when a kid starts growing up and learning that certain kids in school are "gay," they will associated with something negative.

I have a friend Leslie who says "that's so gay" or "that's so queer" all the time. I'm always, like, "What are you? In junior high still?" It's an immature form of speak to begin with. Its negative social connotations are just icing on the cake.

Either way you cut it, it's just bad form.

[gaystoryman]

It is interesting, the idea that eventually the term will lose its mean spirit is to me, unreal really.

Simply because the term '******' or 'so gay' or whatever might be less likely to garner objection by society doesn't make it any less demeaning, less hurtful. The words are used to set aside a group in a negative light, whether intentional or not, and as long as people who are affected by such words remain silent, the abuse will & does continue.

There is an old adage, 'think before you speak' and it seems that today, just like common sense, thinking before one speaks has gone dormant. If people don't stand up for what they feel is insulting, how can they then expect others to rise up and defend them when it becomes more serious?

[XXXWriterDude]

It is interesting, the idea that eventually the term will lose its mean spirit is to me, unreal really.

Simply because the term '******' or 'so gay' or whatever might be less likely to garner objection by society doesn't make it any less demeaning, less hurtful. The words are used to set aside a group in a negative light, whether intentional or not, and as long as people who are affected by such words remain silent, the abuse will & does continue.

There is an old adage, 'think before you speak' and it seems that today, just like common sense, thinking before one speaks has gone dormant. If people don't stand up for what they feel is insulting, how can they then expect others to rise up and defend them when it becomes more serious?

Excellent points, buddy.

Like some who have posted on here, I don't personally take offense when someone says "that's so gay" or "that's so queer." But I do point out to them that they should not use "gay" or "queer" in those contexts, because it sends a message that you think those things are negative things. Again, regardless of someone's intent in using the phrase, some form of negativity is implied.

I think that anyone who believes in community empowerment has a RESPONSIBILITY to help eliminate these phrases. Words have incredible power in our community, and ignoring it when people use certain words in a negative light is, in a very indirect way, contributing to things like homophobia and racism. You may not look at it that way, but it doesn't mean that's not what is happening. When you ignore someone using the word "gay" in a derogatory way (REGARDLESS of whether they mean it toward gay people or not), you are indirectly condoning hate speech, just as using archaic words like "fireman" or "police man" or "mail man" means that you are condoning sexism.

Plain and simple, the negative roots of the terms "gay" and "queer" begin with an association with the gay community, and to me, that makes them unacceptable. And my personal opinion is that, even if you yourself are not personally offended by the use of such terms, you should be helping to educate people in not using the terms. In the long run, phrases like these are and will continue to be harmful to our community--and especially to our community's youth--as long as they go unchecked and tolerated.

[Jasun]

I'm always, like, "What are you? In junior high still?" It's an immature form of speak to begin with. Its negative social connotations are just icing on the cake.

Either way you cut it, it's just bad form.

Well, and that's the crux of the whole thing. I grew up thinking that "gay" meant "mentally retarded" and that all mentally retarded people were gay... I even thought that gay people were mildly retarded.. it was a sliding scale.. the more retarded you got the gayer you were.

Ok, I wasn't the brightest bulb, but I was 6.

My point is the same as Ken's i think... wether they mean it to be negative or not, it is. And I've heard it a million times from people that "I don't mean it like that..." and I simply say "then find a word that conveys what you meant a little better, please."

[CorbinFisher_BD]

I'm really not sure there's much if any intentional thought to offend when someone uses that phrase.

I'm not saying that means someone can't find themselves offended or hurt when hearing it.

I just don't see a person making it a point to take a stab at gay people when they say something like "That's gay!".

It's just became part of the modern day vernacular.

So, whereas I think someone's entitled to be offended when they hear someone exclaim "that's so gay!" because the negative roots of that phrase are obvious, I don't think it'd do much good to get too worked up over it. Just about every ethnicity and minority and group has dealt with it.

Ever welshed on a bet? Ever known an indian giver? Ever gone dutch on a date? Heard someone say "That's white of you"? Ever had an appliance that was "on the fritz"? Ever followed a swear with "pardon my French"?

Each of those phrases originated from one group of people having a negative perception of another group of people. As offensive as they are and were when they originated, the plain truth of the matter is they're such common parts of today's language that no one really thinks of the origins anymore. When someone says "pardon my French" no one really thinks of what the French have to do with that swear word or think to themselves "Ugh. Those foul-mouthed French!".

"That's so gay" will end up just like the rest of those phrases. Not very flattering, and still bound to offend some. But an integrated part of the vernacular that really has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with gay people but instead holds its own meaning unto itself and neither demonstrates in the user nor inspires in those hearing it a negative thought about homosexuals.

[DonMike]

I guess at 36 I'm just an old fart. Being gay I hate it when someone uses the word "gay" to mean stupid or bad. It's just that simple.

[Jasun]

I just don't see a person making it a point to take a stab at gay people when they say something like "That's gay!".

It's just became part of the modern day vernacular.

Great.

You go say "******" in Compton and then tell them that it's just "The modern day vernacular". I'm sure they're going to agree.

Why is it that the gay community.. er.. some of them anyway.. are willing to take being hit with words and defend the people who use them?

I never let anyone get away with that shit around me. Even if they use it in a joking way.. I'll let them know.

I'm not overly agressive.. when someone says "That's so gay" or "You cock sucker", I generally say something back like "You say that like it's a bad thing".

they get the point. I hope you do too.

[DonMike]

I've written about this before, but I think I should bring it up again. I had a roommate some years ago, shortly after coming out, who was always making little snide remarks about me being gay. Him and his girlfriend would say "oh that's gay" all the time. He would call me fag or homo, but always in a "I'm only joking" sort of way. I was so concerned with people accepting me as a gay man that I went out of my way to make sure they knew they did not have to censor themselves around me and that they could joke freely. Did that build respect? No, it actually brought about just the opposite. The attitude I ended up getting from this guy was "hey, I can make fun of this stupid fag to his face and he don't even get mad". His "meaningless" phrases soon took a much darker tone and I went from being his "faggy friend" to being called cocksucker, faggot and all kinds of other things, which I took with a whole bottle of salt because I wanted to prove to him that it didn't bother me. So even though we started out as getting along pretty well, I finally got really tired of being treated like I wasn't even human or didn't have any feelings at all.

And Patti is right. Calling a man by the term "girl" when you feel he is less than a man means you do not think very highly of women. What does it mean when you call someone "gay" whom you feel is stupid and worthless?

[CorbinFisher_BD]

Great.

You go say "******" in Compton and then tell them that it's just "The modern day vernacular". I'm sure they're going to agree.

Why is it that the gay community.. er.. some of them anyway.. are willing to take being hit with words and defend the people who use them?

I never let anyone get away with that shit around me. Even if they use it in a joking way.. I'll let them know.

I'm not overly agressive.. when someone says "That's so gay" or "You cock sucker", I generally say something back like "You say that like it's a bad thing".

they get the point. I hope you do too.

I'm not sure how your ****** example applies here. In fact, I'd say it doesn't.

Within modern vernacular, "******" is an extremely offensive word. In fact, probably the most offensive word in the English language. There's no doubt it is offensive. And so even its role within modern vernacular doesn't allow for me to go around using it against anyone.

I do think "******" is an interesting word, though. And I'm glad you brought it up. Whenever there's a discussion on offensive words and phrases someone always pulls out the "****** card" to try and make a point. Just like someone always plays the "hitler/nazi" card when discussing politics or social policy.

"******" didn't really become an offensive word until this last century. Although it wasn't quite appropriate for social conversation, its understood meanings even allowed for it to appear in Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn without anyone, at the time, thinking much of it or thinking of it as all too offensive.

In the 17th century anti-slavery organizations would use the word "******" in their literature as just a standard word to apply to black Africans. It wasn't an insult.

But it has since become one, evolving in to one of the least pleasant words in the English language and one over which people get more defensive and to which they're more sensitive than just about any other. Thus why you used it as an example here, although your example didn't really apply too well.

Regardless, modern vernacular. The meaning and usage of the word "******" has changed over time. Just as "That's so gay!" will. Just as "fag" has and "queer" has and will.

"Queer" was eagerly adopted by men in the early 20th century who wanted to differentiate themselves from effeminite and showy homosexual men who were called "fairies" and "queens". So even the origins of "queer" with relation to gay men was kind of a "self-hating" thing, if you wanna call it that. And then it became an insult directed at all gay men. And then it became a word the entire gay community embraced as almost a mark of pride. Again, the evolution of language and vernacular.

I ask again... does anything think when someone says "pardon my French" of how that phrase originated from the perception that the French were vulgar and obscene and thus their affiliation with the swear word just spoken?

When you go "dutch treat" on a date does anyone think of how the English viewed the Dutch as cheap and stingy and that's where that phrase comes from?

When you hear of someone welshing on a bet do you think of how the perception of the welsh was that they'd run up huge gambling debts - especially at dog and horse tracks - and not repay them?

Because those are the origins of those phrases, but no one really ties the group at the root of those phrases to their meaning today. The phrases themselves have taken on a meaning of their own independent of the group offense was directed towards when they were first created and became a part of the vernacular.

Again, you're entitled to feel offended and more than welcome to it. But quite frankly I have better things to do with my day than sit around finding reason to take offense at what other people do. And when a young person says something like "that's so gay" and I don't see in their statement any intent to hurt me or even an understanding on their part of where and how that phrase originated and what's implied through it, I could really care less.

[longboardjim]

i acutally use the phrase "that is so gay" in reference to what the gay community is typographicaly identified as but then i'm gay so i don't see the harm at poking fun at myself.
i also use the term "that is so hetero" ( usually when i'm straight establishment with a moosehead over the bar draped in bra's and panties ) of course i'm usually speaking with gay friends.

sincerely ~ ..."there are worse things i could do" - grease

[Jasun]

There's obviously difrferent ways to use the term "that's so gay".

When we're talking about Capri Pants, Malibu Ken or Madonna records, yes.. it's ok to use the term.. you're saying "That's so homosexual".

If you're meaning "that's so lame, weak or bad", well.. I don't let that get past me.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

There's obviously difrferent ways to use the term "that's so gay".

When we're talking about Capri Pants, Malibu Ken or Madonna records, yes.. it's ok to use the term.. you're saying "That's so homosexual".

If you're meaning "that's so lame, weak or bad", well.. I don't let that get past me.

I think there's nothing wrong with pointing that out to someone when they use it. In fact it's probably a good thing to do that when in the company of someone who uses the phrase and isn't aware of how it could be received and cause hurt.

"Hey, just so ya know, that saying has real potential to offend. I'd appreciate your not using it around me" or something along those lines. Whatever the situation dictates.

But I think in that a person can afford to be made aware of that and have it pointed out to them is also the evidence that they weren't conciously aware of its potentially offensive nature when using it. The intent to hurt wasn't there and spite wasn't intended through their use of it.

And that's where the discussion of vernacular comes in. How is it this term has become commonplace, and where does it go from there? And I think that denying the role of popular culture in the development of vernacular and denying the existence of contemporary vernacular in the first place doesn't do anyone any good.

That's why I don't get offended when I hear someone use it. I recognize it as a saying that can offend. But I personally do not get offended unless I see true intent to offend and be hurtful on the part of the user.

[Paco]

I consider words to be very powerful tools, so I am not the type that simply shrugs them off (unless it is some idiot spewing at the gums, whom I merely look down at, with pity) - many people chose their words carefully and use specific ones for a reason.

Certain types of people evaluate words used by another (friends, enemies, family etc) and take them in a literal fashion or 'hang on every word'. Some people chose their words as they would a weapon (severity of damage).
Now what makes them different from using your fists (aside from the visible marks)?
Are mental wounds not more detrimental or damaging than physical ones?

So to me, a person using the word gay (whether or not) is no different from them using the word fag, ******, homo, girlie/femme/like a girl, Jew, Indian, commi, wop etc.
All are an unnecessary classifications and abusive words, which are stereotypical.



One question: when one says that's so gay, what do they mean?

To me, gay means licentious, happy and sometimes refers to relations between two-people of the same sex.