Are sponsors allowed to do this?

[Richard Craver]

i don't see how it could be a legal requirement, although hopefully chad will let us know. after all, the terms are there for all to see.

but basschick. if you're told that you're breaking your contract, wouldn't you want to know EXACTLY what you're breaking? (aside from the issues being raised in this thread?)

For instance, spamming. Evidence, please? .. etc..

god forbid that u'd be guilty of spamming basschick just an example.

[samebb]

but basschick. if you're told that you're breaking your contract, wouldn't you want to know EXACTLY what you're breaking? (aside from the issues being raised in this thread?)

For instance, spamming. Evidence, please? .. etc..

god forbid that u'd be guilty of spamming basschick just an example.

Would be helpful if you were informed your account had been closed, and you dont find out days later when trying to check your stats, Yes.

Iv been informed just now on ICQ by Fishy that i will be paid on the 8th of Janurary in full for the outstanding balance. I hope this happens, and thanks again Fishy.

[basschick]

you may want to know, but that doesn't mean it's a legal requirement that you be told. if you are termed, you should be able to go to the terms and find the reason why. the only reasons you can be legally removed must be stated in the terms, so there's not generally a reason to tell a person - especially if you have already communicated with them and the affiliate has not made the required changes.

after all, no one spams by accident and spamming is not only against everyone's tos's, it's also illegal. the ftc warns programs to lose the spammer or lose their program. period.

as far as evidence - this isn't court. you could take the program to court, but generally they do keep copies of everything and do, in fact, have evidence. not always, but every time i've seen one of these blow up, the program DID have evidence.

besides, more times than not when i see drama threads, it turns out that the affiliates knew how they were breaking the terms - they were just hoping they could bully the program into paying them.

but basschick. if you're told that you're breaking your contract, wouldn't you want to know EXACTLY what you're breaking? (aside from the issues being raised in this thread?)

For instance, spamming. Evidence, please? .. etc..

god forbid that u'd be guilty of spamming basschick just an example.

[tigermom]

Well, the TOS also said you would be sued for slander, and obviously you didn't rush out to get a lawyer... I am not a lawyer, but reading that paragraph looked to me like they were stating everything they can do, to cover themselves in case they have to.

I'm not sure what it is you did or didn't do, but sounds like everyone (including yourself) agrees it was reason enough to get your account terminated. If that's the case, then as per their TOS they can keep the balance and the fact that they are willing to pay it out to you shows me they're a very good sponsor to work with

Take Google Adsense for example. Soooooo many stories out there about publishers who worked with them, got their account cancelled for suspected fraud (they never tell you exactly what - they don't want to cover their fraud detection methods), even though they swear they never did anything, and got left owed thousands of dollars for that month. I think there have been a few lawsuits about this, not sure how they ended. Bottom line is, go to any mainstream webmasters board and you see stories like that and everyone agrees there's nothing to do about it and they keep working with adsense.

So, yes, read the contract before you join a program and play by their rules. This doesn't mean they can do anything, but they can do quite a lot There is a matter of unfair clauses in our legal system too, I'm sure it applies in the US as well. For example, they tell you they can change the agreement at any time. Well, if some program owner went and added a clause to an already signed contract saying you must sign over all of your domain to them within one month, or sell him your grandmother, I doubt that it will work... it has to be within reason. And sometimes, it might be left for the court to decide what's reasonable and what's unreasonable.

[chadknowslaw]

It looks like this issue has been resolved, right?

I thought I would write generally on the Terms and Conditions of Sponsor programs. I am going to call both Sponsor and Affiliate "him" for convenience. "Him" means all of the women too.

T& C are an agreement, and even though it is unilateral in formation [only the sponsor has any input on the wording of the agreement] the Terms set out the rights and responsibilities of both Sponsor and Affiliate when you are doing the stuff that the Agreement is all about [sending joins and getting paid for those joins].


When you go to a sponsor's website and then apply to be an affiliate, you are agreeing to the Terms of Service or Terms and Conditions. That is a binding agreement, and when you send traffic or download content or just click the "I agree" button you are agreeing to those terms, and usually those terms state that they can be modified at any time without notice. These are basically unilateral contracts --they work one way. You either take the agreement as it is or leave it --you have no negotiating power. So, always read the Terms of Service or Terms and Conditions. It is tedious, but not nearly as tedious as writing them ;-) So far my record is a 43 page word document for the Terms and Conditions of Use.

Usually there is a section that tells you what will happen if you violate the Terms. Usually the Terms that you agreed to include a clause where you agreed to be terminated and you agreed to forfeit any money owed to you if you break any of the terms. Usually there is no warning provision, no contact provision, and you only find out you are terminated and forfeited your money after you contact the sponsor.

basschick is certainly right that proof of violation is not the same as a court of law; the Terms and Conditions on most sites state that you agree to provide that the decision of the Sponsor is final. They are definitely lopsided agreements, but Affiliates either have to agree to them or choose not to promote them; there is no other remedy.

As the writer of many many Terms and Conditions, I know how slanted they are toward the Sponsor. T&C are often times not "fair" but the Affiliate usually has to affirm that he READ and UNDERSTOOD the terms and conditions before sending traffic.

If the Affiliate does NOT violate the Terms and Conditions, the Sponsor still has the right to terminate at any time because it is just a business transaction. HOWEVER, if the Affiliate does NOT violate the Terms and Conditions then the Affiliate has the right to receive payment for what he has sent according to the agreement.


To summarize, a Sponsor can terminate for any reason without notice. If the Sponsor is not terminating the Affiliate for violating the Terms and Conditions, then the Affiliate still has a right to be paid what is owed to him up to the time of termination.

[Lee]

To summarize, a Sponsor can terminate for any reason without notice. If the Sponsor is not terminating the Affiliate for violating the Terms and Conditions, then the Affiliate still has a right to be paid what is owed to him up to the time of termination.

Chad you are correct however, when the TOS are re-written a few hours before SPECIFICALLY for the reason of terminating a single affiliate, that is crazy, as Patti mentioned above, an affiliate agreement IS a contract and their affiliate agreement, imho, isnt worth the HTML it is coded in.

Sam could very easily have taken this to court and won because of the actions Zbucks took this time around.

The worrying thing about all this is, if they have done it once, who's to say that it wont happen again? What if they suddenly decide they dont want affiliates that own dogs to promote them? What if they decide they dont want affiliates who also promote another program to promote them? The list of possibilities is endless here, they have already proven they'll do whatever they like to terminate an affiliate, even if that means ammending an existing legal contract, without any prior warning, id be very cautious about sending any sponsor that did that any traffic.

Regards,

Lee

[chadknowslaw]

This brings up a very specific issue.

Here is the scenario:

Affiliate signs up for the program, according to the Terms and Conditions existing at that time. Affiliate sends traffic and joins. Sponsor changes the Terms. Affiliate actions that were once not prohibited now violate the T & C. Sponsor terminates Affiliate.

Objectively, the Affiliate can be terminated but since he did not violate the T & C that existed at the time, I don't think the Sponsor could legitimately deny the Affiliate payment UNLESS the Affiliate violated the NEW T & C AFTER they had been posted on the site. So, if Affiliate signs up December 1, T & C are silent about Action X, and Affiliate does Action X on December 15, then Sponsor changes T & C on December 20 and terminates Affiliate on December 21, Sponsor should still pay Affiliate for all joins between December 1 and December 20. I don't know a winning argument for Sponsor unless Action X violated a specific law AND the T & C included a blanket clause that stated violating legitimate laws was also a violation of the Terms and Conditions.

Chad you are correct however, when the TOS are re-written a few hours before SPECIFICALLY for the reason of terminating a single affiliate, that is crazy, as Patti mentioned above, an affiliate agreement IS a contract and their affiliate agreement, imho, isnt worth the HTML it is coded in.

Sam could very easily have taken this to court and won because of the actions Zbucks took this time around.

The worrying thing about all this is, if they have done it once, who's to say that it wont happen again? What if they suddenly decide they dont want affiliates that own dogs to promote them? What if they decide they dont want affiliates who also promote another program to promote them? The list of possibilities is endless here, they have already proven they'll do whatever they like to terminate an affiliate, even if that means ammending an existing legal contract, without any prior warning, id be very cautious about sending any sponsor that did that any traffic.

Regards,

Lee

[gaybucks_chip]

The realiity is that shady sponsors can do this sort of stuff and most likely they will get away with it unless they screw a deep-pocketed affiliate who wants to take the time and money to fight it.

I would suggest that the best thing affiliates can do is fight back with their pocketbook and traffic. READ the T&C of the affiliate program you're thinking of joining. (I do.)

Ask that the affiliate program have the decency to notify you (and other affiliates) if they are going to make any significant changes to their program.

Stop promoting programs with unreasonable TOS, and send them an email *telling* them you've dropped their program and why, and what they could do to get your traffic back.

If lots of affiliates put forth the effort to do this sort of thing, I can guarantee you that the better programs would respond and listen and make changes to their programs. And the crappier programs... well, if word starts to get around, they will lose affiliates, and if they lose enough of them, they'll either go out of business or change their ways.

AJ and I try to listen and respond to all of the input from our affiliates. Sometimes I think I might annoy them with constant questions like "How do you like this preview? What could we do better to make your life easier? What do you think of this payment method?" ... but we view affiliates as partners in our business... and so anything (from unreasonable terms and conditions to crappy galleries to weird payment terms) that limits our partners abilities to make money is a mistake from our point of view... and I know a lot of other program owners who feel the same way.

[dannyz]

Thank you for your input Chip. I have always valued your comments on things so I'd like to take this opportunity to address your statements if I may be allowed to do so.

We did seek legal counsel before the action we took against Sam and everything we did we believe was completely legal and within our rights. We had it stated in our Terms and Services since the launch of zBUCKz that we have the right to change our T&C at any time. Fishy told Sam from the beginning he would be paid and the day we terminated his account we also sent over his Epassporte information to our accountant so that he'd be paid on our payout date of January 8th.

This is the first time we've had to take this measure against an affiliate, and we believe we are more then justified in doing so. Sam has repeatedly given lies and false information on this and other message boards about us, among other acts, which we believe was in order to try and cause harm to our company and reputation. This kind of behaviour is not good for us, our employees, or our affiliates and we took this action in the best interest of EVERYONE in our program and company.

Despite it all, we have tried to treat Sam fairly by making sure he got paid the money he was due and sending him an email to change his links so he did not lose any money from his traffic, as well as alerting him of the change in policy. Most programs, as Tigermom stated, would not bother to do this.

As stated by Fishy, we are always available for our affiliates if they have any questions or concerns. I don't believe we have engaged in actions that are 'shady,' as we have been open and up front from the beginning. I don't think our terms and services are at all unreasonable. The fact is, we agree 100% with your view that affiliates are our partners and have operated that way from the beginning.

I am not sure if your comments were directly pointed at us, but it did read that way to me. I hope I can talk to you sometime or meet you at a convention, I think we'd have a lot in common. It's amazing how cool you find out some people are once you get them away from the computer...sometimes our fingers can get the best of all the keyboard warriors in us!

Cheers,
DannyZ

The realiity is that shady sponsors can do this sort of stuff and most likely they will get away with it unless they screw a deep-pocketed affiliate who wants to take the time and money to fight it.

I would suggest that the best thing affiliates can do is fight back with their pocketbook and traffic. READ the T&C of the affiliate program you're thinking of joining. (I do.)

Ask that the affiliate program have the decency to notify you (and other affiliates) if they are going to make any significant changes to their program.

Stop promoting programs with unreasonable TOS, and send them an email *telling* them you've dropped their program and why, and what they could do to get your traffic back.

If lots of affiliates put forth the effort to do this sort of thing, I can guarantee you that the better programs would respond and listen and make changes to their programs. And the crappier programs... well, if word starts to get around, they will lose affiliates, and if they lose enough of them, they'll either go out of business or change their ways.

AJ and I try to listen and respond to all of the input from our affiliates. Sometimes I think I might annoy them with constant questions like "How do you like this preview? What could we do better to make your life easier? What do you think of this payment method?" ... but we view affiliates as partners in our business... and so anything (from unreasonable terms and conditions to crappy galleries to weird payment terms) that limits our partners abilities to make money is a mistake from our point of view... and I know a lot of other program owners who feel the same way.

[samebb]

Thanks for the info chad.