A Can of Worms - Paycom (Epoch)

[spazlabz]

I have had this problem as well. For us it was linking to review sites that had reviews for sites featuring piss. Paycom told us to remove the links and we worked with them and the review sites to come up with a solution that worked with us.

Even though this happened I have honestly found the people over at Paycom to be extremely easy to work with and very helpful and friendly, they just have their 'rules' that have to be followed and as long as you can fit into those they are a great processor


spaz

[samebb]

I am sure that if your following links, you can probably find links to anyone, especially big sites like bananaguide.

[maxpower]

I would think Paycom (Epoch) would have enough to do now days as it is with out making up work. I really know better than most how you feel man, the compliant departments for the big processors are kind of a craps shoot. Maybe now that you are talking about it in pubic the really good people at banana guide, and Paycom might be able to work out something with janesguide about it’s stated “pubic domain” content that I bet the big problem is coming from.

[gaybucks_chip]

This surprises me, because we discussed the issue with the BananaGuide guys at Phoenix Forum and I was of the impression that they'd discussed it with Epoch and everything was wonderful again.

But I looked and I notice that we don't have the Bananaguide link up on Boyfunk any more... I may have taken it down to expedite things, but I really thought this had been resolved.

Hopefully someone will get to the bottom of this and figure out what the actual Visa regs say, because it makes no sense that CCBill, which is generally every bit as conservative as Paycom if not moreso, has no problems while Epoch does.

[gaybucks_chip]

Yikes!

I just took a quick look at Janesguide.com and I can now understand why Paycom would be nervous.

Here's a small example, from their "definition" page:

Ageplay: Roleplay between consenting ADULTS, many times where one is the parental type figure and the other is a child or infant. I cannot stress enough that this does not involve actual children.

I don't care whether it's legal consenting adults or not, that definitely gives me the creeps and is most likely against Visa regulations.

[maxpower]

Yikes!

I just took a quick look at Janesguide.com and I can now understand why Paycom would be nervous.

Here's a small example, from their "definition" page:

Ageplay: Roleplay between consenting ADULTS, many times where one is the parental type figure and the other is a child or infant. I cannot stress enough that this does not involve actual children.

I don't care whether it's legal consenting adults or not, that definitely gives me the creeps and is most likely against Visa regulations.

Maybe this is just my prospective but the first thing I looked at was the summation pages and its rules. I have never seen a site where types of “pubic domain” content is 70% of the options on the directory itself. :signhere:

I think guys in dippers and stuff like that is cute sometimes, when not taken beyond just dress up or something fun to do with a shoot. Its hard for me to draw some line I guess

[babymaker]

6-7 steps down..

That must mean you can not link to Google, yahoo etc.. If you follow links 6 or 7 deep every site on the internet is then related / linked to each other. Google and yahoo must be far worse and an even bigger No no than Janesguide since they directly link to some scary sites out there.

Anyway, any slightly intelligent person would realize that there is no way anyone can control links that deep.

It seems as if Epoch has an issue with Gaydemon as well as Bananaguide, and most likely any other major link site. (Since I received an email from you)

Interesting enough they don’t seem to mind where sales and traffic comes from.

Correct me if I'm wrong, does not HDK produce quite extreme content; fisting, bareback, watersports.. How does that go together with these rules? While watersports or scat isn’t my thing, atleast in my eyes neither is as extreme as bareback or fisting which actually can hurt or cause a person damage. All such "extreme" content comes down to personal preferences.

While Gaydemon for example does not own, produce or host any content that could be seen as extreme or illegal. You might however find a link directly or indirectly to a watersports, scat or bdsm site.

So even if Gaydemon removes any site with the words Watersport, piss, scat etc from out site, we still link to Google, Yahoo, BananaGuide etc who link to other sites who link to other sites.. As I see it, no matter what I do or what links i remove from gaydemon we still will not comply.

Your post was exactly what i was thinking and i dont want to get in the middle of this but i had the same thought, if you go 6 or 7 links deep to any site wouldn't one, maybe lead the right inquiring mind to CP or Scat or etc?? just my thoughts, i will stay out of this one as its too risky, but i had thoughts of that as well.

[hunkhunter]

Bill wrote me and informed me that HunkHunter's Haunts was banned too. Looks like we are included with good company. I find the rule ridiculous for same reasons already stated here. We do link to pissing and fisting sites as do the major search engines, but we certainly do not have such content on our site. Even if we did not list these categories nor link to such sites, sites in other categories certainly link to sites with such content so we could never comply with its rules.

It would seem that a minor player like paycom that is trying to build its business would try to play by the same rules as the other processors and not make its rules more restrictive. It sounds like a business model doomed to failure or at least minimal growth opportunities. Perhaps it needs to re-think its position.

[hdkbill]

6-7 steps down..

That must mean you can not link to Google, yahoo etc.. If you follow links 6 or 7 deep every site on the internet is then related / linked to each other. Google and yahoo must be far worse and an even bigger No no than Janesguide since they directly link to some scary sites out there.

Anyway, any slightly intelligent person would realize that there is no way anyone can control links that deep.

It seems as if Epoch has an issue with Gaydemon as well as Bananaguide, and most likely any other major link site. (Since I received an email from you)

Interesting enough they don’t seem to mind where sales and traffic comes from.

Correct me if I'm wrong, does not HDK produce quite extreme content; fisting, bareback, watersports.. How does that go together with these rules? While watersports or scat isn’t my thing, atleast in my eyes neither is as extreme as bareback or fisting which actually can hurt or cause a person damage. All such "extreme" content comes down to personal preferences.

While Gaydemon for example does not own, produce or host any content that could be seen as extreme or illegal. You might however find a link directly or indirectly to a watersports, scat or bdsm site.

So even if Gaydemon removes any site with the words Watersport, piss, scat etc from out site, we still link to Google, Yahoo, BananaGuide etc who link to other sites who link to other sites.. As I see it, no matter what I do or what links i remove from gaydemon we still will not comply.

We do make bareback, fisting and a limited amount of watersports films. Of those three, Paycom only has a problem with the watersports.....as does CCBill and our other merchant accounts. Bareback and fisting is not considered extreme by CCBill, Paycom or any other merchant account that we deal with. For our films that feature watersports, we had to go into our descriptions of those films and remove and reference to the watersports. CCBill had us do that about a year ago.

The scat, extreme BDSM and CP are the major concern for Paycom.

I probably should say, that they (Paycom) didn't tell me that they went 6 or 7 levels deep...that weren't that specific, but when I began checking the links we had, I had to go 6 or 7 levels deep in order to find something objectionable on some of the links.

Yes, Gaydemon was mentioned specifically by Paycom as having to be removed because it only took 2 clicks before they the word "scat" appeared.

I can understand where they are coming from, but damn, it's hard for any of us to control what are link partner...or there link partner do, but according to Paycom, VISA holds us responsible for where the links go.

On bananaguide, "Jane's Guide" appeared on the main page.....which is what placed them on the banned list.

Bill

[hdkbill]

I have had this problem as well. For us it was linking to review sites that had reviews for sites featuring piss. Paycom told us to remove the links and we worked with them and the review sites to come up with a solution that worked with us.

Even though this happened I have honestly found the people over at Paycom to be extremely easy to work with and very helpful and friendly, they just have their 'rules' that have to be followed and as long as you can fit into those they are a great processor


spaz

Spaz,

Thanks for the info. Thus far I have found everyone at Paycom to be extreme friendly and professional. I'm glad to hear they are a great processor. Maybe it's worth the effort to comply.

Bill

[maxpower]

I just read again what you mentioned Bill.

So what it comes down to, is what words can be found on a website. Paycom / Epoch is telling you that certain words are not allowed.

So by that rule and because of this thread you can no longer link to GWW either? The word Scat now appears on GWW and because of it is in breach of this rule.

Does this not sound a bit insane? We are not allowed to use certain words on a website..

LOL you have NO idea how much worse it can get with processors, text and maybe even links is easy on a hub page but trust me the biggest processors can do anything they want, and some guy behind a desk in their office will make sure you know that. I do love paycom, and think they are making big strides now days, so if I had to change a bit of text, or lose a link or so from my hub site I would. Just my hub site though with their script on in, its impossible to play this word game in the real world

[hdkbill]

The rules still makes no sense.

The word scat, cp, rape... etc etc is only ever 1 click away from you no matter what you do.

Check your nearest Google.com or Yahoo.com for a very long list of "forbidden" words. So is it then down to how large the company is that have those words on their website? Google or yahoo works in exactly the same way as Gaydemon, Hunkhunter or Bananaguide. Absolutly no difference only the software and amount of users is different.

Dont get me wrong, its not an attack on you Bill, not at all. Merly raising the question how such a policy can be followed when its actually impossible to comply.

Does this only concern outgoing links FROM your site, or people advertising your site, ie inbound links?

I understand what you mean and, of course, I know that you are not attacking me. Yes, it appears as if it only concerns links FROM our site.

As for it being only words, I don't think they are that strict. If the word "scat" or "piss" or "watersports" appears on a website and then there is scat or piss appearing on the site, that is where the problem would come in.


Bill

[Dzinerbear]

It would be nice if we could actually get a list from the processors as to what words are banned. Not that I'm a fan of censorship, but it would be nice to know what the processors consider "extreme" so that we could each make an informed decision about whether we wish to take a stand on the issue or not. But not even knowing?

I know of several sites that have piss content and they're using the billing services of those third party billers, so one would assume that if the ccbill or epoch doesn't have a problem with it, then VISA doesn't, and therefore, it must be okay.

So what else is out there that the processors are billing for that really isn't okay?

Terribly frustrating and what a mess.

Michael

[Dzinerbear]

Felching is sucking cum out of someone's ass, not poo.



Michael

[hdkbill]

Ok, to make this a bit more interesting. I have now removed all references to "scat".

However I still have a watersports category and will remain where it is.

I would like to find out how Epoch / Paycom can justify a rule which is against the use of certain words, while being more than willing to process payments for a site that actually feature such content. (Again no offence to you Bill or HDK - i really like the stuff you make!)

So its now:

1. Gaydemon - Words only
2. HDK - Content only

Does Epoch / Paycom try to tell us that words are far worse and more dangerous than the action of doing it / the real content?

By the way, isn’t Feltching going pretty close to Scat? HDK got that as a category.. How does one decide what’s ok by paycom? Is it certain body fluids or orifices?

Bjorn,

Again, it isn't the words....it is the content. Do you links to scat or watersports link to site that actually show scat or watersports. If you look at our site, with one exception, which is being corrected as we speak, we don't mention the word watersports or piss, or pissing or urnination, nor do we mention it in any of our video descriptions or photos. For that reason, VISA would not know if a film contained it or not. And, keep in mind, it isn't Paycom who created the rules, they apparently came from VISA.

As I mentioned earlier, we received a notification from our online merchant account quite a while back, that if they or VISA were to discover that we had any content which depicted watersports, or what they called, "urination", our merchant account would be closed immediately and without notice.

So it isn't just the words. It is the content if it is shown. The words just make VISA and Epoch and CCBill look further until they find the content.

Bill