"I hate gay people."

[Lee]

Walk the streets arm-in-arm with Gary in about 90% of this country and see how long it is before you are assaulted.

Thats another difference between the two comparisons...

If we choose to, we can actually hide the fact we are gay, blacks cant hide the color of their skin.

Regards,

Lee

[Squirt]

Because one group is, and always has been, able to vote for one thing.

You simply cant go around saying...

'Look this is what happened with this minority group, and this is exactly whats happening with us'

Especially when we have MANY more rights than that other group did.

What would you rather be, gay right now, or black 50 years ago?

Id choose gay right now without a second though, even though i cant 'marry' id still be able to vote, still be able to go out publicly without fear of being killed, etc etc etc

As i said, comparing the fight of the black rights movement and that of the gay rights movement just isnt a fair comparison because like it or not, 'we' have a much, much better deal than the blacks ever did.

We're not talking about black 50 years ago vs Gay today. We're talking about what a black man said today about Gay people today.

Gay rights have to do with Gay people whether they're out or not. This isn't some strange competition between factions of people who are discriminated against.

In society, any society, there is no real equality, there never will be. Women will never be equal to men and each person will not have an equal opportunity over the other, and people outside the societal "norm" will always be considered different, and treated, or thought of, as such.

Keeping that in mind, everyone deserves equal rights under the law and this guy speaking out publicly that we are inferior, hated, and wish us to be gone, just makes him look like an idiot and shows how acceptable it is today to bash Gays over bashing blacks or jews. I doubt his actions will have the slightest NEGATIVE effect in his life, wheras Mel Gibson, and Michael Richards has serious repercussions for their biggoted comments. $0.02

I'm not complaining either. Life goes on, we push forward, and things will improve with time.

[Lee]

We're not talking about black 50 years ago vs Gay today. We're talking about what a black man said today about Gay people today.

Um no, this side discussion was about people comparing the black rights movement 50 years ago to the gay rights movement now, it had nothing to do with the biggoted comments from that sportsplayer, whom you still have to admire for actually having the balls to speak his mind, even though we all agree what he said was a pile of shite.

Regards,

Lee

[Squirt]

Thats another difference between the two comparisons...

If we choose to, we can actually hide the fact we are gay, blacks cant hide the color of their skin.

I disagree

I've known some real queens who've been that way since childhood and had it real rough as kids being bullied.

Equal rights is a fairly simple concept: Equality is a social state of affairs in which certain different people have the same status in a certain respect.

That's like telling a black man that he should act white, in white society, to be accepted and act black in black society to be accepted. Don't laught, this is a real problem in black subculture, as is butching it up in the Gay culture. Having to pretend you're something you're not is a symptom of the problem not a solution to equality.

[gaybucks_chip]

There's discrimination in so many ways it's just insane, and gay people are certainly guilty of their share of discrimination.

Ever notice the gay guys who go around crying about how they are discriminated against by straight society are usually the younger guys in the bars who are only looking at the hot younger guys?

Or gay guys who only want to hire gay people to work for them (and I don't mean just in porn)?

Or gay guys who don't even want to be NEAR anyone with HIV?

Or... among people in general...

How many older managers are reluctant to give sharp younger people a chance at a big project in the workplace?

Or, conversely, how many people over 40 or 50 have difficulty getting hired except for the most senior managerial jobs?

Or how many people subtlely discriminate against people with accents (southern, Asian, middle eastern) in hiring or doing business?

I'm not saying this as a way of devaluing any of the comments... only that I think, oftentimes, people are quick to accuse others of discrimination when they, themselves are probably just as guilty in a different way...

[Lee]

Having to pretend you're something you're not is a symptom of the problem not a solution to equality.

You just dont get it Squirt.

A black guy, or woman, CANT pretend to be ANYTHING other than a black guy or a black woman.

You look at a black man or woman, you KNOW immediately that they are black.

You look at a man or woman in the street, how do you know if they are gay or straight?

Then throw in all the other things that blacks had to fight to get, that we, as gay men and women already have, the right to learn, vote, etc, etc, etc.

As i said, there is absolutely no comparison to be made other than the fact we are trying to get equal rights, and as someone posted earlier, the fact that we [the gay community] keep associating our fight with that of the african-american community is really starting to piss people off.

What we need, in all honesty is what black americans had in the 50's and 60's - The equivalent of a Martin Luther King only then will we start making progress.

Regards,

Lee

[Squirt]

Um no, this side discussion was about people comparing the black rights movement 50 years ago to the gay rights movement now.....

As I said there are many parallels between the two.

They are compaired because they both have similar core issues: Discrimination, Stereotypes, and negative moral subsets.

The reason minorities are discriminaed against is not because of their color, but the stereotypes perpetuated casting minorities as a certain "type" of person with negative moral subsets (criminal, drug user, promiscuous, inferior, etc.).

The reason LGBT's are discriminaed against is because of the stereotypes perpetuated casting LGBT's as a certain "type" of person with negative moral subsets (Drug user, promiscuous, inferior, *********, etc.).

Even to this day members of both communities are repressed, degraded, murdered, treated unfairly, the list goes on, so many similarities. :scissors: :balls:

[desslock]

You know i hate to say it but... Fighting against racial discrimination and fighting against gay rights should never be compared and i just dont understand why that is one of the main comparisons everyone makes when it comes to issues like this.

Yes it is an equal rights issue but at the same time, they are two totally different things.

You cant tell if someone is gay just by looking at them, you cant tell if someone is gay by their birth certificate, passport, drivers license, you cant tell if someone is gay by where they live (unless you count The Village of course ).

This is interesting for Lee to make this distinction. I've heard this line of analysis from Black people too.

So answer this question - are equal rights for Jews different or less so then for Blacks or women? You cannot tell if someone is Jewish just by looking at them.

Our country's working civil rights legistation is the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which protects discrimination on the basis of not only race and sex, but also religion. It's not just about your looks, but about discrimination people because of who they are and their immutable traits.

Steve

[Squirt]

You just dont get it Squirt.

A black guy, or woman, CANT pretend to be ANYTHING other than a black guy or a black woman.

Well actually they can (http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Entert...12957&GMA=true) and according to your logic, since black people can pass for white they should, to avoid discrimination, just like Gay people should pass for straight to avoid discrimination.

You look at a man or woman in the street, how do you know if they are gay or straight?

Equal rights doesn't have anything to do with people who DON'T know your status, and EVERTHING to do with people who DO know your status. Gay, straight, Pos, obese, handicapt, etc.

Then throw in all the other things that blacks had to fight to get, that we, as gay men and women already have, the right to learn, vote, etc, etc, etc.

You have a very narrow view of what a minority is and discrimination. You are only seeing it from the black american point of view. Goto the Bahamas, Barbados, African tribes... being black is the norm ~ being Gay is a cultural death, and possibly a physical one. A racial minority changes from country to country. The LGBT community is a minority across the globe, no matter what country you're in.

[Xstr8guy]

This is interesting for Lee to make this distinction. I've heard this line of analysis from Black people too.

So answer this question - are equal rights for Jews different or less so then for Blacks or women? You cannot tell if someone is Jewish just by looking at them.

Our country's working civil rights legistation is the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which protects discrimination on the basis of not only race and sex, but also religion. It's not just about your looks, but about discrimination people because of who they are and their immutable traits.

Steve

Well stated.

You just dont get it Squirt.

A black guy, or woman, CANT pretend to be ANYTHING other than a black guy or a black woman.

You look at a black man or woman, you KNOW immediately that they are black.

You look at a man or woman in the street, how do you know if they are gay or straight?

Then throw in all the other things that blacks had to fight to get, that we, as gay men and women already have, the right to learn, vote, etc, etc, etc.

As i said, there is absolutely no comparison to be made other than the fact we are trying to get equal rights, and as someone posted earlier, the fact that we [the gay community] keep associating our fight with that of the african-american community is really starting to piss people off.

What we need, in all honesty is what black americans had in the 50's and 60's - The equivalent of a Martin Luther King only then will we start making progress.

Regards,

Lee

Civil rights aren't just for people that look different. I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that Jews have suffered more torment than just about anyone else. And it isn't/wasn't because Jews look different.

And discrimination doesn't only come in the form of a lynching. True, it may be easier for gay people to hide their differences than african-americans but it doesn't make the struggle any less difficult.

[chubbs]

Not to divert your guys' arugement, but something I find even more amazing is that here in the states, in our ENTIRE history of professional sports only 6 men have admitted they were gay. And all 6 only came out after they had retired. Might just be me but I have to think the number of gay men in pro sports is MUCH higher.

--Chubbs

[Squirt]

Not to divert your guys' arugement, but something I find even more amazing is that here in the states, in our ENTIRE history of professional sports only 6 men have admitted they were gay. And all 6 only came out after they had retired. Might just be me but I have to think the number of gay men in pro sports is MUCH higher.

--Chubbs

I totally agree. As a kid in school I LOVED sports, loved the contact, loved the sportsmanship, and especially loved the showers after a game

Gay, straight, bi, whatever, I think mateship is an important aspect of developement. Unfortunately part of the code of mateship is that homosexuality is a betrayal of the trust given by others in the group. I think this is why usually only the retired sportsman are the ones to come out.

Good observation Chubbs

[deanb]

Um no, this side discussion was about people comparing the black rights movement 50 years ago to the gay rights movement now, it had nothing to do with the biggoted comments from that sportsplayer, whom you still have to admire for actually having the balls to speak his mind, even though we all agree what he said was a pile of shite.

Regards,

Lee

So in your thoughts should we also admire Kramer for speaking out in a bar and dropping the 'n' bomb on people?

[TropixxxStudios]

From Yahoo Sports...

The NBA banished Tim Hardaway from All-Star weekend in Las Vegas because of his anti-gay remarks.

Hardaway, who played in five All-Star games during the 1990s, was already in Las Vegas to make a series of public appearances this week on behalf of the league. But after Hardaway said, "I hate gay people" during a radio interview, commissioner David Stern stepped in.

"We removed him from representing us because we didn't think his comments were consistent with having anything to do with us," Stern told reporters Thursday at the opening of a fan festival at a Las Vegas casino, part of the NBA's All-Star weekend.

[basschick]

matesmanship in sports? i have rarely seen it and never in pro sports. sports is about winning. kids here have fathers get into fistfights or worse because the other team won. i have seen screaming and threats at kids' games - want to bet that the lesson they are learning isn't exactly about working together as a team or bonding?

i guess ya gotta appreciate that freedom of speech gives someone the right to say they hate an entire group of people just as i appreciate that i have the right to say i despise him and the people who gave him his lack of any human values. but a little empathy training in kindergarden and first grade and reinforcement throughout elementary school might go a long way toward teaching people to see each other as people rather than as groups.