President Bush to veto gay hate crimes bill

[JamesXR]

I really appreciate your posting the impeachment articles. Somehow I don't think he's going to get what's coming to him. I think our democracy is eroded further than we realize. I think that the conservatives have enough control of the media to keep things from going too badly for him.

[JamesXR]

Couldn’t agree with you more. The real problem is that he still has moths to "keep up the good work".

Bush and his evil moth minions. Is there no plot too diabolical for him. Even our fabrics are unsafe.

[desslock]

I had no idea that the US Department of Justice and A.G. Alberto Gonzales had such strong supporters!

Why should there be a federal criminal law on hate crimes again? And you want to give those special individuals the task of protecting you against violent crime WHY EXACTLY?

If your best friend was assulted because he was gay, you'd prefer making a federal case against the perpetrator regarding the crime versus going to your county D.A. and police department?

Please, gentlemen spell out more clearly your confidence in the federal criminal justice system. I happen to think that's a terrible problem with a federal hate crimes bill..... perhaps its fatal flaw.... the same fatal flaw behind federal drug laws, or other federal crimes (carjacking).

But why should that stop today's emotional ejacutaion "Outrage of the Day" ?

Steve

[JamesXR]

Steve,
Please, do you think a web board is a place for rational informed debate. Can't we just get emotional about something instead.
Yeah, I'm not informed enough to counter you. Still, what about the moths?

[ponyboy]

The government should show history that the American people weren't with him and impeach him

[desslock]

I'm not trying to be overly cerebral. In fact hate crimes bills were a big part of my life for many years. I lobbied for the James Byrd Jr Hate Crimes Bill in Texas in the 1997, 1999 and 2001 legislative sessions. Let me tell you --- the bills that have been enacted in California and Texas which set enhanced criminal penalties against those who commit a crime motivated by bigotry against gays and lesbians is very much justified...and useful.

The Federal Hate Crimes Bill is not at all on the same level. Why would you want to make a federal case of getting assulted in the creaky, shitty federal court system?

It's a fair question, isn't it?

Are you happy with the efficiency and aptness of the DOJ in prosecuting indecency cases? Drugs? And you want to give them more tools as well? Especially when your D.A. in your California county could swiftly bring something like that to better justice?

I've seen the Federal Hate Crimes Law mostly used as a brickbat by political action groups to incite outrage so that they can fleece donors for money.

Feel outraged? Enjoy being used by the system over a pointless bill.

By the way, did you know that Sen Orrin Hatch (used to and probably still does) sponsor a bill that gives federal money to local police departments to prosecute hate crimes cases.... it just holds back at making a special federal crime of it. But I'm sure that's another little known fact that isn't supposed to alter the code of how you are supposed to think and act.

Steve

[Squirt]

Steve it's frustrating when you do a drive by post like this because when you're countered you don't respond with a second post usually. If you ~promise~ to keep responding in this thread until the issue is worked out I'll debate you on it. Feeling game?

I had no idea that the US Department of Justice and A.G. Alberto Gonzales had such strong supporters!

Why should there be a federal criminal law on hate crimes again? And you want to give those special individuals the task of protecting you against violent crime WHY EXACTLY?

If your best friend was assulted because he was gay, you'd prefer making a federal case against the perpetrator regarding the crime versus going to your county D.A. and police department?

Please, gentlemen spell out more clearly your confidence in the federal criminal justice system. I happen to think that's a terrible problem with a federal hate crimes bill..... perhaps its fatal flaw.... the same fatal flaw behind federal drug laws, or other federal crimes (carjacking).

But why should that stop today's emotional ejacutaion "Outrage of the Day" ?

Steve

[JamesXR]

I was hearing that there are an astounding number of rapes and crimes committed against native American women because the Indian nations have jurisdiction over them, but not outside the reservations, so they should technically be left to the feds or something like that, but it all falls through the cracks on the conflict over whose responsibilities it is.
With a gay-hostile administration I can see federal responsibility being used to make gays more vulnerable much the way the Bush administration has used the EPA to weaken environmental laws. Clearly Steve knows more, but I can see it being a problem.
So Steve, is this one of those stupid political issues that politicians can make a lot of noise about, without accomplishing anything, like when they get angry about violent video games?

[desslock]

Steve it's frustrating when you do a drive by post like this because when you're countered you don't respond with a second post usually. If you ~promise~ to keep responding in this thread until the issue is worked out I'll debate you on it. Feeling game?

Sure go ahead. I'll start by saying that increasing the number of federal crimes will do little if anything in protecting us from violent hate crimes. Federal criminal laws generally are badly prosecuted in an overworked court system already taken to the point of breakdown by federal drug laws.

The federal legal system would be as good at protecting us from violent hate crimes as it has been in prosecuting and stopping obscenity.

Most states have a hate crimes law - which is perfectly appropriate.

Are you a fan of the US Department of Justice and the Attorney General? If you have criticized them in the past, why do you think they will effectively prosecute these kinds of cases?

Steve

[desslock]

With a gay-hostile administration I can see federal responsibility being used to make gays more vulnerable much the way the Bush administration has used the EPA to weaken environmental laws. Clearly Steve knows more, but I can see it being a problem.

I am saying that if you or I were to be violently assaulted because of our sexual orientation - prosecution should not be left to Washington DC. You wouldn't be more comfortable with quicker justice from the police in Orange County?

Why would you rather crimes be handled by the US Feds? I would think that police in Orange County would be more sensitive and capable of handling things like this.

Why should criminal law be lifted up and handled in Washington DC now? And if you are critical of how the federal government does things.... why do you want to give them this responsibility ESPECIALLY since prosecutors in Orange Country already have tools to prosecute hate crimes?

Steve

[ponyboy]

Why would you rather crimes be handled by the US Feds?

Its the first steps to force the federal government inot giving us equal rights axross the board.

[wnc]

Many various opinions and an interesting read. I am one that lives and was born in the USA and I frankly believe there are now major cracks in the foundation of our governmental structure. With now a lack of large manufacturing and exporting, the USA can not continue the current pace of spending without a collapse.

Maybe because the founding fathers did not plan on a capitalist democracy, where corporations control the media. And somehow the seperation of church and state that the founders planned for has been lost.

Steve (desslock) brings up an interesting point. Just how many other laws do we need created, as we enter into the Orwell big-Brother dystopia.

On the other hand, Ponyboy wrote exactly what I was thinking. Once slavery was abolished, over time African-Americans were not forced to sit in the back of the bus and use a seperate drinking fountain.

Having a federal law that adds homosexuality to hate crimes would be a step to full society acceptance in the USA, as compared to state law.

[Squirt]

Sure go ahead. I'll start by saying that increasing the number of federal crimes will do little if anything in protecting us from violent hate crimes.

We're just talking about adding sexual orientation to the hate crimes list, that's an increase of just one.

Adding sexual orientation to the hate crimes list serves four purposes:

1) it's partly symbolic and honors previous GLBT hate crimes victims

2) Gives much needed federal resources to local law enforcement to prosecute hate crimes

3) Sets a federal platform acknowledging our minority status and rights as well as need to be treated equally.

4) Creates accountability for local law enforcement to pursue prosecution of hate crimes dealing with sexual orientation when previously it would be ignored (we all know the small town horror stories of acceptable abuse of minorities and GLBT community member)

Federal criminal laws generally are badly prosecuted in an overworked court system already taken to the point of breakdown by federal drug laws. The federal legal system would be as good at protecting us from violent hate crimes as it has been in prosecuting and stopping obscenity.

You haven't included any statistic to backup those comments. We currently don't have any federal options and something is better then nothing. Again the law is not meant to protect us from violent crime, only giving more resources in prosecution of the crimes, also see my points above.

Most states have a hate crimes law - which is perfectly appropriate.

Most states is not all states. I'd like to know that in any state I travel to, no matter how rednecked, that it's not more acceptable to commit a violent crime against me in one place, more so then another.

Are you a fan of the US Department of Justice and the Attorney General? If you have criticized them in the past, why do you think they will effectively prosecute these kinds of cases?

I think the USDOJ is great but I am no fan of Gonzales, he should be in jail.

--------------

It's important to know that about 8 out of 10 hate crimes is a violent crime and about 20% of hate crimes are commited based on sexual orientation SOURCE

Most people don't realize that the USDOJ tracks hate crimes and includes sexual orientation in their list of tracked hate crimes through the FBI's UCR program (Unified Crime Reporting Program) and they've been doing this since July of 2000! It's ironic that the only hate crime category that they've been tracking for 7 years, that they can't enforce prosecution of, is sexual orientation.

Isn't it odd as well that now there is an influx of religious organizations crying foul at including sexual orientation in the this of protected categories because it interfears with their right to freedom of speech?? We are the bottom rung, the last ones it's ok to openly hate and discriminate against. It's got to end.

[Squirt]

Many various opinions and an interesting read. I am one that lives and was born in the USA and I frankly believe there are now major cracks in the foundation of our governmental structure. With now a lack of large manufacturing and exporting, the USA can not continue the current pace of spending without a collapse.

Maybe because the founding fathers did not plan on a capitalist democracy, where corporations control the media. And somehow the seperation of church and state that the founders planned for has been lost.

Steve (desslock) brings up an interesting point. Just how many other laws do we need created, as we enter into the Orwell big-Brother dystopia.

On the other hand, Ponyboy wrote exactly what I was thinking. Once slavery was abolished, over time African-Americans were not forced to sit in the back of the bus and use a seperate drinking fountain.

Having a federal law that adds homosexuality to hate crimes would be a step to full society acceptance in the USA, as compared to state law.

I agree with all the points you've made here. Well said

[ponyboy]

Originally Posted by desslock
Most states have a hate crimes law - which is perfectly appropriate.
Most states is not all states. I'd like to know that in any state I travel to, no matter how rednecked, that it's not more acceptable to commit a violent crime against me in one place, more so then another.

Id like to add a little to this if you don't mind. Right now local police department know that they can just swipe a hate crime gay hate crimes under the carpet. By a stronger federal law it would forces the states that don't have hate crime laws or enforce them to do so. Plus this new law also includes transgender people.

Plus Id also like every kid that sits in church and hears how bad gay people are and that we sin by sleeping with our loved ones. I want them to know that the full arm of the law will come down on them like a ton of bricks if they try to beat me or my lover up. I want them to know that they can't come into a gay area and throw beer bottles at us or yell bad things at us, or any place.

It is important that the federal government knows that we are people and that we should have full and equal rights and protection under the law.