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Evidently Tim Hardaway is/was some significant sports guy.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html
"You know, I hate gay people, so I let it be known. I don't like gay people and I don't like to be around gay people," he said. "I'm homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."
What a lovely human being!
Wonder what the reaction would be if he was white and had said:
"You know, I hate black people, so I let it be known. I don't like black people and I don't like to be around black people," he said. "I'm racist. I don't like it. They shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."
Well, he is african-american. So most people would think he was a self-hating black man. Lol. But then again maybe he's just a self-hating gay man. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Yeah I know he's african american... changed my post :groovy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xstr8guy
But the point remains... it's still ok to bash Gay people. I'm stating the obvious I know
Whilst i think his remarks were pretty homophobic you actually do have to admire the guy for speaking his mind.. Something a lot of people no longer do in todays society $0.02
I see no fault with what he said because of 'how' he said it, doesnt change the fact he's still a biggot, but a biggot who says what he beleives non the less.
Regards,
Lee
You know what is sad, is that coming from someone belonging to a race that fought one of the biggest human rights struggles in our country, he would be a little bit more open minded and understanding of others. Sometimes I just don't get how close minded some individuals are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by deanb
Almost as bad as some on the Gay side who hate/resent straight people. Or black people who hate/resent white people. Or some white people who hate/resent black people for hating/resenting white people. Or mexicans, arabs, on and on and on. It's just a big quagmire of nastiness :shitpoke:
You know i hate to say it but...Quote:
Originally Posted by deanb
Fighting against racial discrimination and fighting against gay rights should never be compared and i just dont understand why that is one of the main comparisons everyone makes when it comes to issues like this.
Yes it is an equal rights issue but at the same time, they are two totally different things.
You cant tell if someone is gay just by looking at them, you cant tell if someone is gay by their birth certificate, passport, drivers license, you cant tell if someone is gay by where they live (unless you count The Village of course lol).
Being black and fighting for equal rights and being gay and fighting for equal rights just cant be (and should never be) compared, blacks got a lot more shit than we ever have or ever will...
You dont go walking around and seeing gay guys (or women) hanging from trees every day.
You dont see gays being made to drink out of their own water fountains.
You dont see gays being told to ride at the back of a bus or to use a different bus stop alltogether.
You dont see gays holding low paying jobs because they are gay.
You dont see gays not being allowed to vote.
You dont see gays cleaning up after their white 'masters' because they are gay....
There is a huge difference between the two fights for equal rights and i personally wish the comparison between the two would stop.
Regards,
Lee
They are compaired because they both have similar core issues: Discrimination, Stereotypes, and negative moral subsets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
The reason minorities are discriminaed against is not because of their color, but the stereotypes perpetuated casting minorities as a certain "type" of person with negative moral subsets (criminal, drug user, promiscuous, inferior, etc.).
The reason LGBT's are discriminaed against is because of the stereotypes perpetuated casting LGBT's as a certain "type" of person with negative moral subsets (Drug user, promiscuous, inferior, *********, etc.).
That's why religious people say "don't hate the sinner, hate the sin" They don't hate Gay people or minorities, they just hate what they do - that's the similarity :bunny:
But Squirt, they arent similar by any stretch of the imagination, thats my point, plus we arent talking about the religious zealots are we, we're talking about 'real' people who realize that stories in a 1000 year old book arent actually 'gospel' ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Regards,
Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Funny how you wish the comparison between the two would stop after making such a long list comparing the two :)
We could make a list a LOT longer of LEGAL discrimination against Gay people as of today in the year 2007, obviously. Yes we all know we are at the bottom rung and even convicted murders, pedophiles and rapists have more rights then a Gay man :angel:
How so ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
There's nothing out of the ordinary about Blacks opposing gay equality. Perhaps it's because people assume that people of color just naturallly embrace the civil rights idea, whilst all mean people are supposed to religious fundamentalists.
Look back to 2005 to the Texas state wide constituonal amendment election which forbade same same marraige. One of the more interesting statistics was was the state's heavily black counties voted overwhelmingly for it.
Jefferson County is 34% black, and a true blue coller, trade union area on the Gulf of Mexico right next to Louisiana. It includes Beaumont and Port Arthur, and also happens to be the nation's favorite federal court venue for trial lawyers bringing class action tort lawsuits against corporations.
The amendment to ban same sex marriage passed in Jefferson County by 84%.
Many Blacks just have the same problems and feel the same stereotypes as anyone else. I'm not defending them.
I've known a number of gay black guys who get pretty weird about being out to their family. Lots of them come from Baptist church upbringings. And a lot of them get resentful when they see gays jumping on their civi rights movement.... tieing Hate Crime Bills to theirs, or getting really irate when you compare same sex marriage to their movement for interracial marraige in the 1960s.
But it points up one of the annoying things many gay rights organizations do, which is form "coalitions" All this does is associate the movement with people who aren't particularly supportive, while ignoring others who could be.
Steve
Because one group is, and always has been, able to vote for one thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
You simply cant go around saying...
'Look this is what happened with this minority group, and this is exactly whats happening with us'
Especially when we have MANY more rights than that other group did.
What would you rather be, gay right now, or black 50 years ago?
Id choose gay right now without a second though, even though i cant 'marry' id still be able to vote, still be able to go out publicly without fear of being killed, etc etc etc
As i said, comparing the fight of the black rights movement and that of the gay rights movement just isnt a fair comparison because like it or not, 'we' have a much, much better deal than the blacks ever did.
Regards,
Lee
That depends on where you live. I'd rather be a black person in Harlem in 1961 than a gay man in Laramie Wyoming today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Walk the streets arm-in-arm with Gary in about 90% of this country and see how long it is before you are assaulted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Thats another difference between the two comparisons...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xstr8guy
If we choose to, we can actually hide the fact we are gay, blacks cant hide the color of their skin.
Regards,
Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
We're not talking about black 50 years ago vs Gay today. We're talking about what a black man said today about Gay people today.
Gay rights have to do with Gay people whether they're out or not. This isn't some strange competition between factions of people who are discriminated against.
In society, any society, there is no real equality, there never will be. Women will never be equal to men and each person will not have an equal opportunity over the other, and people outside the societal "norm" will always be considered different, and treated, or thought of, as such.
Keeping that in mind, everyone deserves equal rights under the law and this guy speaking out publicly that we are inferior, hated, and wish us to be gone, just makes him look like an idiot and shows how acceptable it is today to bash Gays over bashing blacks or jews. I doubt his actions will have the slightest NEGATIVE effect in his life, wheras Mel Gibson, and Michael Richards has serious repercussions for their biggoted comments. $0.02
I'm not complaining either. Life goes on, we push forward, and things will improve with time.
Um no, this side discussion was about people comparing the black rights movement 50 years ago to the gay rights movement now, it had nothing to do with the biggoted comments from that sportsplayer, whom you still have to admire for actually having the balls to speak his mind, even though we all agree what he said was a pile of shite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Regards,
Lee
I disagreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I've known some real queens who've been that way since childhood and had it real rough as kids being bullied.
Equal rights is a fairly simple concept: Equality is a social state of affairs in which certain different people have the same status in a certain respect.
That's like telling a black man that he should act white, in white society, to be accepted and act black in black society to be accepted. Don't laught, this is a real problem in black subculture, as is butching it up in the Gay culture. Having to pretend you're something you're not is a symptom of the problem not a solution to equality.
There's discrimination in so many ways it's just insane, and gay people are certainly guilty of their share of discrimination.
Ever notice the gay guys who go around crying about how they are discriminated against by straight society are usually the younger guys in the bars who are only looking at the hot younger guys?
Or gay guys who only want to hire gay people to work for them (and I don't mean just in porn)?
Or gay guys who don't even want to be NEAR anyone with HIV?
Or... among people in general...
How many older managers are reluctant to give sharp younger people a chance at a big project in the workplace?
Or, conversely, how many people over 40 or 50 have difficulty getting hired except for the most senior managerial jobs?
Or how many people subtlely discriminate against people with accents (southern, Asian, middle eastern) in hiring or doing business?
I'm not saying this as a way of devaluing any of the comments... only that I think, oftentimes, people are quick to accuse others of discrimination when they, themselves are probably just as guilty in a different way...
You just dont get it Squirt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
A black guy, or woman, CANT pretend to be ANYTHING other than a black guy or a black woman.
You look at a black man or woman, you KNOW immediately that they are black.
You look at a man or woman in the street, how do you know if they are gay or straight?
Then throw in all the other things that blacks had to fight to get, that we, as gay men and women already have, the right to learn, vote, etc, etc, etc.
As i said, there is absolutely no comparison to be made other than the fact we are trying to get equal rights, and as someone posted earlier, the fact that we [the gay community] keep associating our fight with that of the african-american community is really starting to piss people off.
What we need, in all honesty is what black americans had in the 50's and 60's - The equivalent of a Martin Luther King only then will we start making progress.
Regards,
Lee
As I said there are many parallels between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
They are compaired because they both have similar core issues: Discrimination, Stereotypes, and negative moral subsets.
The reason minorities are discriminaed against is not because of their color, but the stereotypes perpetuated casting minorities as a certain "type" of person with negative moral subsets (criminal, drug user, promiscuous, inferior, etc.).
The reason LGBT's are discriminaed against is because of the stereotypes perpetuated casting LGBT's as a certain "type" of person with negative moral subsets (Drug user, promiscuous, inferior, *********, etc.).
Even to this day members of both communities are repressed, degraded, murdered, treated unfairly, the list goes on, so many similarities. :scissors: :balls:
This is interesting for Lee to make this distinction. I've heard this line of analysis from Black people too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
So answer this question - are equal rights for Jews different or less so then for Blacks or women? You cannot tell if someone is Jewish just by looking at them.
Our country's working civil rights legistation is the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which protects discrimination on the basis of not only race and sex, but also religion. It's not just about your looks, but about discrimination people because of who they are and their immutable traits.
Steve
Well actually they can (http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Entert...12957&GMA=true) and according to your logic, since black people can pass for white they should, to avoid discrimination, just like Gay people should pass for straight to avoid discrimination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Equal rights doesn't have anything to do with people who DON'T know your status, and EVERTHING to do with people who DO know your status. Gay, straight, Pos, obese, handicapt, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
You have a very narrow view of what a minority is and discrimination. You are only seeing it from the black american point of view. Goto the Bahamas, Barbados, African tribes... being black is the norm ~ being Gay is a cultural death, and possibly a physical one. A racial minority changes from country to country. The LGBT community is a minority across the globe, no matter what country you're in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Well stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
Civil rights aren't just for people that look different. I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that Jews have suffered more torment than just about anyone else. And it isn't/wasn't because Jews look different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
And discrimination doesn't only come in the form of a lynching. True, it may be easier for gay people to hide their differences than african-americans but it doesn't make the struggle any less difficult.
Not to divert your guys' arugement, but something I find even more amazing is that here in the states, in our ENTIRE history of professional sports only 6 men have admitted they were gay. And all 6 only came out after they had retired. Might just be me but I have to think the number of gay men in pro sports is MUCH higher.
--Chubbs
I totally agree. As a kid in school I LOVED sports, loved the contact, loved the sportsmanship, and especially loved the showers after a game ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by chubbs
Gay, straight, bi, whatever, I think mateship is an important aspect of developement. Unfortunately part of the code of mateship is that homosexuality is a betrayal of the trust given by others in the group. I think this is why usually only the retired sportsman are the ones to come out.
Good observation Chubbs
So in your thoughts should we also admire Kramer for speaking out in a bar and dropping the 'n' bomb on people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
From Yahoo Sports...
The NBA banished Tim Hardaway from All-Star weekend in Las Vegas because of his anti-gay remarks.
Hardaway, who played in five All-Star games during the 1990s, was already in Las Vegas to make a series of public appearances this week on behalf of the league. But after Hardaway said, "I hate gay people" during a radio interview, commissioner David Stern stepped in.
"We removed him from representing us because we didn't think his comments were consistent with having anything to do with us," Stern told reporters Thursday at the opening of a fan festival at a Las Vegas casino, part of the NBA's All-Star weekend.
matesmanship in sports? i have rarely seen it and never in pro sports. sports is about winning. kids here have fathers get into fistfights or worse because the other team won. i have seen screaming and threats at kids' games - want to bet that the lesson they are learning isn't exactly about working together as a team or bonding?
i guess ya gotta appreciate that freedom of speech gives someone the right to say they hate an entire group of people just as i appreciate that i have the right to say i despise him and the people who gave him his lack of any human values. but a little empathy training in kindergarden and first grade and reinforcement throughout elementary school might go a long way toward teaching people to see each other as people rather than as groups.
Its completely different, he used the word to retaliate against someone in the audience that was heckling him, not because it was something he personally beleived in... He deliberately used it as an insult whereas Hardaway wasnt trying to be insulting, he was stating his personal viewpoint on a specific topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by deanb
If someone turned around and said the exact same thing that Hardaway said against blacks, and personally felt they beleived what they were saying then yes they should be admired for not being afraid of stating what they beleive in.
Why should anyone have to be afraid of speaking their mind or stating their personal beleifs in case they 'upset' someone else? Its ridiculous.
The USA has become a culture of political correctness gone mad, it isnt going to be long until we cant order a black coffee because it contains racial undertones in someones mind... There have already been lawsuits about this type of thing happen in the US.
Regards,
Lee
Lee has been backed into a corner. I don't think he'll be responding to any more posts in this thread ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by deanb
Unless you belong in that group of people being talked about it would seem LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by basschick
The day we stop people being able to speak their mind or state their beleifs publically is the day we do away with freedom of speech in its entirity, freedom of speech is a two-way street, it allows the good and the bad to be said without fear of reprisals.
Regards,
Lee
Oh don't blame this on the USA Lee, political correctness has plagued ALL western cultures in the last 10-15 years, it's pathetic, and countercultures are using this to their advantage to push forward their extremist agendas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Funny thing.. last year right before Christmas I realized here in Australia everything was "happy holidays" not "Merry Christmas!" ... it was everywhere... until I got on a flight to Hong Kong... as soon as you got on the plane you heart Christmas music, saw mistle toe over every window and the flight attendants were wearing Christmas hats!
It was then that I realized part of our Western culture which others around the world so admired, was dying, and needed to be saved. I made it a point this year to be very Christmas like, "merry christmas" everywhere I went. It was nice and people responded warmly and enthusiastically.
Have you been to London lately Lee? What a mess! Culture clashes at EVERY turn, much worse then states, so far. Same thing in France and Italy. We truly are at the beginning of a culture war.
So you think that your Christian religious holiday beliefs should be forced on other religious cultures for the sake of 'saving' those beliefs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Interesting....
Because thats just what the anti-gay marriage movement is trying to do.
Regards,
Lee
Ew yuck I'm not a christian. How dare you accuse me of such nastiness!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Far reach equating a gift giving holiday with the rights of a sexually reppressed faction of our society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I never said you were a Christian, i said your Christian holiday beliefs... Which is EXACTLY what Christmas is, a Christian religious holiday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Not at all Squirt, you want everyone to celebrate Christmas, in order to save 'Christmas' just as those who oppose gay marriage dont want gays to marry so they can save their traditional view of 'marriage'.Quote:
Far reach equating a gift giving holiday with the rights of a sexually reppressed faction of our society.
Regards,
Lee
Actually no, you didn't. You saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Enjoying the holiday of Christmas, Easter, Valentines Day, Martin Luther King Day, Veterans Day, President's Day, hanukkah, Mardi Gras, April Fools, St. Patricks Day, the tooth fairy, etc. etc. doesn't classify me as anything other then a human being that has a little imagination, likes to have fun, and enjoys giving to other people and sharing good times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Who are you to tell me what I want? I never said that I wanted to "save christmas" Oddly enough you are pushing your christian religious holiday beliefs on this board by having a Santa Claus smiley on display :santa:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I don't see a hanukkah smiley! But I do see Easter bunnies :bunny: :bunnypancake: Velentines Hearts :heartu: Christian Angeles :angel:
Yep... looks like you're backed into a corner again Lee. You've been caught pushing your chirstian religious holiday beliefs on all of us 365 days a year, catering to the religious right I see, you Christian religious holiday drug pusher you :innocent:
Sure looks like it to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Regards,Quote:
I realized part of our Western culture which others around the world so admired, was dying, and needed to be saved
Lee
Funny how you ignore key points in pivotal postsQuote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Oddly enough you are pushing your christian religious holiday beliefs on this board by having a Santa Claus smiley on display
I don't see a hanukkah smiley! But I do see Easter bunnies Velentines Hearts Christian Angeles
Yep... looks like you're backed into a corner again Lee. You've been caught pushing your chirstian religious holiday beliefs on all of us 365 days a year, catering to the religious right I see, you Christian religious holiday drug pusher you