lol thank you for that?
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lol thank you for that?
Actually, Ken, I don't think I ever said that I know exactly what anyone's intentions are, and if I did, then I apologize for that, because you're correct -- I cannot know what's going on inside anyone's head.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
I did say that, in scheduling a new event on top of one that is already established (even if only by one year) aimed at the exact same, relatively small universe (gay webmasters) within a month of the already established show, it's hard to find any credible reason to choose that particular timeframe, other than to compete with and squash the event that created the market in the first place.
I am trying not to state or repeat anything that's false. As I learn and understand and read between the lines of what people have written, the picture becomes a little clearer.
But my original statement, that the parties involved could solve the problem if they chose to do so, remains unchanged, and I think that statement *is* factual, so I will continue to repeat it if others try to distract the main focus... which, to me, is to get unity and cooperation among the community as a whole.
That's the part it amuses me to see so many people choose to overlook.
Everyone and their dog has the right to throw together a convention. And just as with any other business, some will survive and some will not and there's no God-given entitlement to be successful, much less make it at all.
But when your product (gay webmaster convention) is supposed to likewise provide a service to your customers (gay webmasters) and you do something so transparent as disallowing one greatly beneficial product/service for sake of your own, I see a conflict in what you're attempting to say you're providing and what the actual impact upon the community is.
The end result, in my opinion, of preempting the GPF for sake of another is a gay webmaster community with fewer options and fewer opportunities. It's ironic that in offering up what is being billed as a resource and service to gay webmasters, the organizers of this latest event may have actually done more harm than good for the community in the long run.
alas, it now postiing game time. I AM NOT PLAYING Lee's post count game.
I want to know why CCBILL was blocked as being a sponsor for the NEW scheduled event.
Let me assure you, this thread will not die until I get the answer.
Wow! This sucker is going to hit ten pages.
I just wish the people organizing the October gay conference would just come here and have an open discussion about it.
Sure, they're going to get screamed at. A lot of people are really pissed about losing a show that was pretty well loved. But let's clear the air. And if they value the gay side of the business, then send someone here to talk to us.
Regardless of what happened or didn't happen behind the scenes, when AVN announced this show we all screamed on this board that it was a bad idea. There was even a poll that showed most people wouldn't attend two gay shows back to back. And they went ahead with the show anyway. So apparently our feedback is meaningless.
And then, we lost a show that the community was very happy about. That's what we're angry about.
Michael
I only wish I could write as well as you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
I personally, as a small full-time gay webmaster, think Epoch spent money to reach our community. It has backfired, when you dont allow CCBILL to be represented.
AS mentioned, a POLL was disregarded.
I, as a small Gay webmaster, now know names to avoid business with.
So we went 2 pages without any post from me and everyone just *vanished* i guess its time i ask the questions again or we'll never hear from that group of companies who have so many questions left unanswered... The same group of companies who 'support' the gay webmaster community, until that very same community starts asking for explanations of their actions.
1) Why did Cybersocket, AVN and Epoch decide to schedule their show in the same month where they obviously were aware that CCBill was planning another Gay Phoenix Forum?
2) What were the reasons for Cybersocket, AVN and Epoch behind adding a non-compete to the show contract which specifically disallowed CCBill any opportunity to sponsor their show, even though, for many years, and in fact at the Phoenix Forum at the end of this month, Cybersocket is allowed to sponsor, just as AVN and Epoch are allowed to sponsor and, will most likely be at the show in full force?
3) Why, by maliciously timing their show and subsequently forcing CCBills hand in cancelling this years Gay Phoenix Forum did this group of companies, Cybersocket, AVN and Epoch decide that lining their own pockets was more important than uniting the gay adult webmaster community?
4) Why does it take a post from *ME* to illicit a response from Cybersocket, AVN and Epoch in respect of the questions many of us actually want answering and why do those responses always end up distracting from the main reason this thread was created and turning to accusations of 'drama' from the 3 companies involved and their friends?
For companies who profess wanting to unite the gay adult industry, they certainly only seem to be interested in addressing the gay webmaster community when the 'heat' gets to much for them.
Lets wait for Morgan, Karl, Ken and Holly to come back in force, hopefully with some answers to the as yet, unanswered questions many of us still want to hear about.
Regards,
Lee
Lee,
I have no answers, I am not throwing the show Lee, but I will be attending it. I dont play poltics and I think it will be a good show. I really enjoyed the GayVNs this year and am looking forward to another good show!
and Brian I am not assuming nothing about you or how you feel.
I honestly cannot understand this huge issue but one thing for sure a month from now some new issue will take it's place and you can all go on about that!
Not even for question #4 above Holly?Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedDollars Holly
Why did it take a response in this thread from ME for you to come back and reply to it... Minutes after i posted?
Regards,
Lee
I doubt it. I don't think people will forget a month or 6 months or a year from now.Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedDollars Holly
This is a much bigger deal than anything I can think of (other than perhaps .xxx) that's happened before, because there's never before been a case where a group of companies have banded together and directly told the sponsor of a loved and anticipated event to cancel it because they weren't going to support it, and then turned around and scheduled their own event at the exact same time.
Now, granted, this is what is publicly known. Others have insisted that there's perhaps a different explanation, but no one is offering up that explanation (other than the completely non-credible "it's a coincidence.")
I'm open to the idea there's an alternate explanation, and I think everyone posting in the thread is open to the idea of some meaningful action by the parties responsible to create the unity that everyone, except the 4 or 5 people that started posting in the last 24 hours, seems to want. CCBill is on record as saying that it wants to participate and support unity in the community, so no one can say they aren't coming to the table.
As much as some people would very much like it if the noise would quiet down, I think it's only going to get louder as more and more people in the community understand what's going on and start asking the same questions.
Yet, whenever an opportunity to take actions or make public statements supporting unity and cooperation among all, and making BOTH events viable and successful, the silence from the AVN/Epoch/Cybersocket camp is deafening.
I want to reiterate that I am not "siding" with anyone on this issue, and I remain open to input and information from any credible source. I'm also very willing to change my opinion given credible evidence to do so. I just haven't seen or heard anything that would warrant a change in my viewpoint, and I suspect that most of the others posting here feel the same way.
Hi Everyone;
I could not believe this thread when I found and read it. I would like to at this time take the opportunity to share with you all our thoughts and feelings regarding all of this.
As most of you know Badpuppy has attended and sponsored in some capacity, every Internext but one since its inception. We have also sponsored every Phoenix Forum, except one since its inception. We chose to be a Presenting Sponsor for their first Gay Phoenix Forum last year and our experience was phenomenal.
A different location may have been preferred, as we are all spoiled you know! That however was not why we were there! We were there to take advantage of doing business, whether expanding current relationships, or creating new business relationships at an event that was the first of its kind to bring together the Gay industry in one place, at one time. In our eyes and our experience, CCBILL did a top notch job and we were thrilled with the outcome. As far as the hotel, had CCBILL had any idea that the event was to be so popular and attendance almost double than they planned, I'm certain a different venue would have been selected. It's hit or miss sometimes with a first time event.
I'd also like to say that our experience with all of the Internext shows by AVN have also been phenomenal experiences, including the most recent GayVN show in San Francisco. It too was a very well done show and we could not have been more thrilled with that outcome.
We were planning on sponsoring this years Gay Phoenix Forum, had it not been canceled, as well as our sponsoring the GayVN Webmaster Retreat, after our experience in San Francisco. We are very sad that the Gay Phoenix Forum was canceled and if resumed next year, they will indeed have our support!
Our hopes are that next year maybe all parties can work together to put together the Gay show of shows and if they do, I'm sure we'll be involved and if they don't, we'll do our best to support both. If the Gay industry cannot work together as a whole, then we are going to be following the path of the Straight industry, that many of you who have posted know for fact we've discussed and all talked about and that is that it's a dog eat dog situation and their attitudes and actions cause division. We've boasted about how the Gay industry is so different and why we've all had such great success in working together as an industry, working hand in hand with our competition.
We love the folks at CCBILL, just as we love the folks at AVN and are proud of our relationships with them, as well as all of our friends and business associates in the Gay industry. Badpuppy will continue to support the Gay industry as a whole and not become separated for any political reasons that may or may not be there! I personally think that much of this is being over blown and fuels fires that need not burn.
With that said, we look forward to continuing the path we've followed for nearly 12 years and that is to working with and supporting the entire Gay industry and all of the businesses that make up this industry.
For those of you who will be in Phoenix next week, I will be there and look forward to seeing you and meeting any of you that I have not had the opportunity to meet. I'd also like to say that we'll be a part of the GayVN Retreat this fall and for those of you that I miss in Phoenix next week, I hope to see you in LA this fall. If CCBILL were to change its mind and resume plans for The Gay Phoenix Forum this year, we would be there to support them as well.
We are not about to get involved with any political division or hearsay that may or may not even exist. Our support lies with the Gay industry as a whole and will continue in that direction as long as Badpuppy is around and our plans are to be around for a long time to come.
I guess from my point of view, I want to hear what the parties involved have to say. I won't necessarily believe them because, well, people lie all the time. It's called marketing and public relations. I don't ever expect AVN and/or Epoch to say, "You know what, we fucked up and we're awfully sorry ..." If they did I would fall off my chair, but they'd regain my respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
But the fact that this forum is continually ignored by the parties involved (except for a couple of voices from Cybersocket and Ken from AVN) is (a) dismissive and (b) continues to add to the speculation.
If they want this issue to go away they really ought to come here and address us. Afterall, this is the biggest gay webmaster board on the Web. As much as some people hate to admit it, it's true. If you're gay and working in this business and you want to know what's going on, you have to come here. Even enraged people who have started other gay boards, still come here.
So this issue isn't going away and we can keep bumping this thread to the top of the forum until we get an answer.
And hey, last night when I went to bed it had 1701 views, this morning it has 1818 views, so people are still reading it.
Come on guys, do the right thing and address the community you say that you want to support.
Michael
But people will be able to say (and have already started to do so) that about CCBill so long as that non-compete agreement for the AVN/Epoch/Cybersocket show remains in effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
Im also pretty certain that is why it was put in place, given how verdantly Epoch seems to be marketing itself to the gay webmaster community as late.
Regards,
Lee
LOL, I guess cause we all listen and read what you say. I was actually out and came back to check the thread, I may disagree with most on this but I do enjoy and appreciate the discussion and the ability to have a forum where you can disagree!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Very well Said My Friend! See you next week poolside!Quote:
Originally Posted by lisa
Its just a shame that you dont feel the same way about the rest of the posters in this thread with the same questions that i have.Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedDollars Holly
Yet again proving your little group of friends doesnt care what the gay webmaster community you want to 'unite' thinks... Until it suits your needs., it really is shamefull.
Regards,
Lee
Where have I said I don't care for the rest of the posters in this thread? I have no clue what you have against my "little group of friends" Lee but that we are not allowed to disagree with you or others without you saying we are just trying to suit our needs is shameful to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I appreciate your being here and sharing your thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedDollars Holly
At the end of the day, the gay webmaster community should have a show that caters exclusively to us and truly serves our best interests and provides attendees (and sponsors and organizers) the opportunity to develop their businesses and be successful.
If the GayVN Retreat turns out to be the best thing that's happened to the gay webmaster community in a long while I'm all for it. If it turns out to be a tremendously valuable resource and is both executed and received well, that's good for everyone.
However, it's my belief that it's starting off with a fair bit of ground to make up before it even "hits even", so to speak, because it has come about at the cost of the Gay Phoenix Forum. There were ways the GayVN Retreat could have been planned that left the community with more options and opportunities, but instead it's come about through eliminating rather that complimenting.
Indeed, I hope I'm wrong in my impression of it all. Because my impression involves the community having lost something very valuable.
For the record, I agree with everything Brian Dunlap has written on this thread. What AVN, Cybersocket & Epoch did is extremely obvious to even a casual industry observer.
Frankly I would like to see an annual conference for the gay adult industry that is not run by a for-profit corporation but is a true co-operative effort. One that has low or zero entrance costs and that is held in different cities each year.
Almost every industry except adult has an association that holds an annual conference. The conference location and agenda is controlled by the members of the association, not by the interests of a handful of companies with their own agendas and run for the benefit of the members, not to make money for one company.
Isn't it about time we had a Gay Adult Industry Association?
For the record, there are several companies discussing such an event right now, i mentioned it in another thread i think but it seems to have gotten lost somewhere along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaMan
The only issue that this group is currently facing is costs of puttng the show on and securing companies willing to pay for attendees to actually attend, attendees are basically only going to have to pay for airfare everything else, rooms, food, entertainment, etc will be paid for by the sponsors.
Date wise nothing has been finalized yet but several dates have been mentioned including the end of September and the middle of October as there really doesnt seem to be a timeframe other than these dates to operate another gay show ;)
Regards,
Lee
As I told you before, Lee, it's not my place to speak on behalf of my bosses. I do not make decisions regarding shows, so to do so would be wildly inappropriate of me. I'm just an associate editor, but I know that my bosses are good people, and I will reiterate that until I'm blue in the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Have you considered that the reason you're not getting the answers you want is, in fact, because of the environment of hostility that you are actively encouraging? Your questions are loaded with innuendo and presuppostion of guilt and "maliciousness," while others have since openly come out and said that they won't believe anything we say anyway. Wow. Talk about incentive for anyone to come on here and open a dialogue. You have fostered such an open environment of hostility that YOU yourself are to blame for anyone not coming onto your board of hatred and attempting to clear the air. The lack of tact on display in this thread is positively unprecedented!
My statements in this thread were not, as you and Chip have implied, intended to distract from the issue at hand, but since I cannot speak to that, I chose to offer my own comments about what I see to be a very important issue at hand, which is the way you use this board as a bitter, hateful and spiteful means to an end. Many of us are well aware of the issues you have with one or two of the companies you are attacking in this thread. No matter what you say in response to this, anyone with half a brain will be able to see that you are using this thread as a way to lash out at the companies you have PERSONAL beef with.
This is not my battle to fight, so I really need to step out of this and just let it go. I just hate to see people that I know to be genuinely good get raked over the coals by a someone with his OWN agenda to push.
I agree that it would take a brave soul to come in here and face the heat and discuss the matter. But that would not have been the case if there hadn't been stony silence on the issue for weeks. And at this point, stony silence (Morgan's less-than-credible explanation notwithstanding) is just going to continue to make matters worse.
Ultimately, the companies that are in the "hot seat" can come and either own up to what's been alleged, or if there's a different explanation, offer that up. But any alternate explanation has to be credible, or it will get ripped to shreds. And silence won't work either, because the outrage among webmasters is spreading, and people that normally stay neutral are getting incensed and are starting to speak up. In my 7 years in the industry, I've never seen anything like it.
I don't speak for anyone else, but I am open to alternate explanations. Yes, it's possible there wasn't malevolent intent by scheduling the Summit directly opposite GPF. But at the moment, with the facts we currently have, there's no other reasonable explanation. If there is a credible alternative explanation, it's up to the parties that say they have the facts to provide them and let the community judge which of the differing explanations (CCBill's vs Cybersocket's) is the most credible.
Unity and cooperation is what matters. Everything else is just petty politics. When the principal parties involved realize that, and put aside their own interests in the name of the community as a whole, we'll get somewhere. Until then, this thread will keep getting views and comments, disgust among the webmasters reading will continue to develop, and the credibility of the people who remain silent on the issue will continue to be damaged.
I have offered to speak to anyone with any viewpoint on the subject matter, by phone, IM, or email, and I'm ready to change my opinion if there's credible evidence to support that notion. That offer remains open.
Well written, as usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
Why is there a non-compete clause, keeping CCBILL out of the NEW planned show?
Quite frankly, I hope to never deal with Paycom/Epoch due to this, especially after pages of comments and no one answering that question, asked numerous times.
Yet i am not the only one asking for answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
At least if i was the only person who was genuinely disgusted by the actions of Cybersocket, Epoch and AVN you could use that argument to distract people from the matter at hand, unfortunately, there is more than just me asking for answers so that whole standpoint is invalid Ken.
Why cant someone from Cybersocket, Epoch or AVN come in here and honestly address the concerns of the webmaster community they so adamantly claim to want to unite?
As Chip mentioned above, staying quiet is doing non of the 3 companies involved, Cybersocket, Epoch and AVN any good whatsoever, if anything it is damaging their credibility more and more by them not addressing the questions.
For a group of companies who constantly profess to wanting to unite the gay webmaster community, it looks more and more that our 'community' only matters to them when they stand to profit from us.
We have questions and we would like answers, until we get them, im pretty sure this topic of discussion isnt going anywhere, which is only going to greater damage the reputations of Cybersocket, Epoch and AVN by them continuing to ignore the gay webmaster community.
Unite us, tell the gay webmaster community you want to unite the answers to our questions.
I dont understand why these 3 companies are letting this fester so long, especially seeings as reps or owners from all 3 of them have been reading this thread every few hours since it was started, and we still dont have any answers.
Regards,
Lee
Wise decisionQuote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
I just want you to know that I appreciate your posts and insight, on this subject, and many others you bring to the board.
Part of being a productive community is people from all viewpoints voicing their opinions, whether popular or not, and doing so without intimidation.
Total agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Sometimes that can be hard when you feel passionate about something, but rarely do you get all of the best information out there if you take an antagonistic approach.
Just giving this a bump because the questions asked still dont appear to have been answered :(
Regards,
Lee
Why is CCBILL not ALLOWED to be a Sponsor at the scheduled Gay event, due to a non-compete clause?
I think that is a question the LEE still seeks an answer to, *I* certainly wait for an answer.
Epoch and AVN *still* playing "duck and cover."
At least Cybersocket had the balls to come and say *something* even if it didn't exactly have the ring of truth to it.
I hope people will keep bumping this thread and starting others until there's a satisfactory response on all of the issues.
Bump for answers from AVN and Epoch :)
Regards,
Lee
Bump, Still Waiting:innocent:
Bump again...
bump....
Hmmmm, all these bumps. Sounds like you guys need to go get checked out by your doctors. Too many bumps sounds like a problem to me... ;)
I've been reading this thread since it's inception and just kept quiet not wanting to get involved with what appears to be a lot of hearsay and conjecture on the part of many. And, I didn't want to add to the hearsay.Quote:
Originally Posted by wnc
Have any of you taken the time to actually talk to Epoch? Yesterday I spoke with my representative there and ask him point blank if it was a FACT that CCBill was banned from being a sponsor at the Retreat. His answer was, and I quote, "absolutely not". He also said that most companies who deal with Epoch also deal with CCBill, so why do something that is going to piss everyone off.
So, assuming he was not lying to me, where is all of this coming from? What proof has anyone provided that CCBill is banned from sponsorship?
Both CCBill and Epoch are great companies, as well as AVN. And, thank heavens we have CCBill and Epoch or most of us wouldn't be in business. AVN??, well I tolerate them, since they have certain policies in place against reviewing or doing feature stories on companies that make bareback films, while at the same time constantly calling trying to get me to spend my advertising dollars with them and I think they are hypocritial as hell, but yet, they do have a damn fine organization that keeps us all informed. But until they change their policies or at least gets rid of their editor at GAYVN, they'll never get a dime out of me.
Back to the topic, I talked directly to Epoch, they told me that CCBill has NOT been banned from sponsorship at the Retreat. So, who has proof that I was lied to by Epoch? If you have the proof then let's hear it, and no more hearsay please. If not, then don't you think it's time to stop saying it?
Bill
Well....
In it's initial announcement, CCBill reported that an exclusive deal was made with Epoch, and no one from Cybersocket, AVN, or any of the Cybersocket supporters that magically appeared and then disappeared said anything to the contrary.
Offhand, I can see a couple of possibilities.
(a) CCBill wasn't telling the truth in the first place. This seems unlikely, since if that was the case, Morgan would certainly have clarified that point, and Epoch would immediately have posted to report that they had no objections to CCBill's participation. Neither of those happened.
(b) Epoch eventually figured out what everyone had been saying all along: that they were hurting themselves severely. They then changed they their mind and voluntarily gave up the exclusive arrangement, but decided to leak out the news rather than publicly make an announcement so they could avoid the heat of having to answer for taking an exclusionary tactic in the first place. Not the best choice, but from a PR perspective, probably the best option they were left with after stonewalling in the first place.
Perhaps there's another explanation, but once again, those who talk about "all these other factors" surrounding both the exclusivity and the squashing of the GPF event aren't offering up anything.
I am pleased to hear that the exclusivity has been lifted, assuming it's true, but it still doesn't address the main issue, which is the squashing of GPF by scheduling the Retreat at the same time.
Perhaps the loud complaints from all those who posted here HAVE had an effect, in which case, it does show that when the community bands together, we can have an effect.
I would still like to see full resolution, explanation, and a commitment to openness and cooperation on future events, and that has still not been forthcoming. I hope people will remember that.
Bill,
I spoke with someone at CCBill yesterday afternoon in person and was told they are still presently unable to sponsor that event to their knowledge.
So heres another bump to get some answers.
Regards,
Lee
Makes it even worse to know that someone here - either ccbill or epoch - is directly lying. One thing to dodge the question completely, another to lie directly to someone's face.
So... either CCBill is lying and Epoch has removed the "non-compete", in which case you'd think that Epoch would be banging down the doors to tell everyone, or Epoch lied to Bill, in which case.... you'd expect them to be silent.
I can't believe that Epoch is still thinking this will just go away.
I've avoided posting in this thread too.
Can someone tell me why its such a big deal that Epoch made an exclusive advertising agreement? Yeah that means that ccbill, netbilling and any other billing processor can't be a sponsor, but it doesn't mean they can't attend. I guarantee if this happened in any other way, it would have been hailed as a good business strategy. If a company is willing to pay the money for exclusivity, heck all the more power to em!!!
btw: epoch wasn't allowed to sponsor phx forum
The way i see it there are two different issues.
1. AVN choosing the end of October for their forum. This somehow bumped out the Gay Phoenix forum when the last i heard ccbill was looking at the end of September, if at all.
2. Epoch making an exclusive advertising agreement which doesn't prevent ccbill from attending. In all a good business strategy. I'm sorry the ravings about this issue is pathetic nonsense.
Hey I like ccbill. I like epoch. Both companies have always treated us well. The way i see it this couldn't have worked out better for ccbill. 1. They don't have to hold the gay phx forum which I do believe they didn't want to do again. 2. They make epoch look like the bad guys.
Dance puppets dance!
Nicely said!
Steve