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Hope you folks have been keeping up with my column. Check it out here:
http://avnonline.com/index.php?Prima...tent_ID=277127
Anyone have any ideas for future topics you'd like to see me cover?
November issue should be out any day now. Next topic: "The Myth of Gay Retention"
Why do you think gay attendance was down at the Florida show this year?
Could it be because the costs of attending these shows are spiralling out of control show after show only to have the privilage of seeing the same people, hocking the same shit from show to show? (Not just Internext, all shows).
Thats certainly the reason that we, as a company, have taken a concerted effort to cut back show attendance.
Regards,
Lee
I went to Florida last year and there just wasn't the gay attendance there to warrant going again this year.
I also heard someone saying that while Phoenix was great, they didn't really see anyone there that they didn't already know. The shows don't bring out the independent webmasters. It's too cost-prohibitive for me. I could have spent $2000 on Phoenix or I could buy $2K in content, or pay down some debt. And I think a lot of independants are in this boat. I'm well-known enough in the biz that if I need something I can e-mail, call, or ICQ the program.
I don't know how to resolve this issue, perhaps some contests or scholarships to help subsidize the trips for smaller webmasters would get more people out to these shows.
Cheers
Michael
Or, and this is a really crazy concept...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
How about the show organizers actually start to realize we arent in the early 90's anymore and the people who NEED to be attending these shows, are the newer webmasters who simply cant afford to drop $1000-$2000 to attend a show.
Perhaps if the 'registration' prices for these shows were the same as the Phoenix Forum prices, i.e free, more people would attend.
The other thing is perhaps the event organizers can go to slightly less-extravagent hotels and hold a show there, im sorry but $200 a night for a room is just not worth it to me, as a company owner.
Then add in the price of airfare, upwards of $400 for a return flight and thats almost $2k right there, taxis, meals, drinks, gambling, it all adds up.
Show attendance is going to continue dropping until the organizers of these paid events begin to realize they MUST compete with the likes of CCBill. Until this starts happening, webmasters are going to see the same faces over and over and over and over again, show after show and that is no good for anyones business, especially the show attendees.
Regards,
Lee
Yes, I agree ... The Mandalay Bay, The Venetian, those shows aren't for webmasters, they're for program owners to show off their bling.
I didn't attend Internext/Florida this year because of all the problems I had with the 2005 show, followed by the Vegas convention's frustrations.
The AVN shows have registration fees and take place in pricey resorts. That's ok, but from an affiliate's perspective that means their shows constitute the biggest investments. So I exercized my "wait and see" option for Internext/FL.
However, I think that AVN has listened to people's feedback and things look better. I am planning to attend Internext at the Mandalay Bay, and I just added the GayVN Summit to my calendar.
The shows are an excellent opportunity for webmasters to expand our businesses. I always get returns from the shows. As long as they are solid venues, I'm up for attending.
Steve
There barely a handful of programs that can benefit from these shows. I say more power to them but don't expect most webmasters to drop everything just to hear what they already know. If your still around, chances are, you have a pretty good grasp of how things work. If not, GWW is a great place to learn. Also, informal webmaster dinners and events are alot more fun and to me, more productive. Those big events are mainly for the straight side of the equation.
I'm with Michael, I'd rather drop the money on new content. It simply doesn't make any sense for independents like myself to waste the money.
I look at attending shows as a cost of doing business-- for me it is really a marketing expense. If you are serious about being in the adult online business, attending a show or two every year should be part of the company budget -- even those companies that are just one or two people. With all the shows now dotting the calendar, there is at least one that is geographically close if you are in North America or EU. [sorry squirt. you chose to live in a former isolated prison colony] The webmaster who is serious about doing business and not just accumulating the most free drinks will find that a $2000 show can reap exponential benefits. The webmaster who goes for the parties will come away thinking that shows are a waste of time and money.
I think most shows are becoming more business-oriented and less like a bunch of college sophomores with dad's platinum card, and the companies that do send representatives are looking at the bottom line of how financially productive each show can be. I recall big companies with huge booths and a small army of staff just a few years ago -- and the same companies now are booth-less and send key staff. Some companies are even --god forbid-- requiring their representatives to stay clean and sober when they are representing the company!!!
The trade show is evolving from a big party to show off silly amounts of money to business conventions where key people meet face to face and real deals are made.
CC Bill's shows are really raising the bar. No registration fee and reasonable hotel rates for those that register early. Flights in an out of Phoenix are also reasonable when booked in advance. No show floor and an emphasis on networking seems to be very well received.
I think trade shows will continue to be an important part of the serious industry member's budget and calendar. The way trade shows function will continue to evolve as the industry itself evolves and matures. For the time being, shows are still a valuable marketing tool for those that adapt and use them properly.
Internext Las Vegas is at Mandalay Bay this year. !! Thank god. The last time it was at Mandalay Bay, I paid $89 plus taxes per night and stayed in the Luxor, which has a tunnel to Mandalay and probably the same distance as the walk from one end of the Venetian to the other. Mandalay and its sister hotels Luxor and the bargain-basement [but you get what you pay for] Excalibur are actually reasonable if you book in advance. I opted for a suite at THE Hotel and still not paying as much as my standard room at the Venetian.
For every pompous ass that snubs his nose at anything less than a 5 star hotel for a trade show, there are a bunch of webmasters that would have chosen to attend if it was in a moderately priced hotel but couldn't swing the $400 a night basic room at the Venetian. Give me the masses over the 400 thread count sheets, 650 square foot rooms and chocolates on the pillow any day.
I think i'm just the exception in this industry in every way, shape and form. I do all the design, promotion, make the content, everything myself for 7 months a year. Then I take a 4 or 5 month break in the summer and just enjoy life away from the industry. I hike, walk, plant, travel, ... just do what I want and there's no amount of money in the world I would trade that freedom for but that's just me.
Trade shows have no appeal for me. I'm not a millionare. I never had those kinds of aspirations. I never dreamed of the ivy leagues, or the bar, or extracting every penny I could out of life. I'm quite the contrary. I have enough for myself and that's all I need.
It is not accurate to lump all webmasters together. We have different goals, aspirations both monetary and/or otherwise.
Chad,
I disagree, there are enough companies and individuals that have never attended a show that are doing well for them NOT to be a cost of doing business, if they [the shows] were needed to grow a business, all of these webmasters and companies that have never been to a show, wouldnt be successfull.
We've been going to the shows as a company since around '99 and can honestly say, with a few exceptions, we have typically spent more than we have taken away from the shows, the exceptions being the 2 Phoenix events we attended, it just isnt worth the hassle or cost for us attending the shows any more, especially as Michael points, when you can pretty much be guaranteed to see the same people who are present on the boards that we are able to contact by phone or by email, travelling some 2000 miles across the country for the privilege of staying at an over-priced hotel, while perhaps getting to see someone for all of 5 minutes (if you are lucky) on the show floor just doesnt make for good business sense.
I'll admit, going to the shows was a nice break from the day-to-day business runnings, almost taking on the part of a working vacation but, there comes a point when enough is enough and, that point has been reached for a lot of companies, who like us, used to attend every show there was.
Show attendance isnt needed any more, the webmasters you can do business with at the shows, can be found on the boards, why spend $2k+ going to a show only to have to end up emailing them or calling them when you get back home anyway?
The company owners you can do business with at the shows, can be contacted by phone or email, again why spend $2k+ going to a show when you can initiate contact by phone or email anyway?
Yes, there is something to be gained by having face-to-face contact with someone you are doing business with but, at the same time, when the same companies that you want to work with, have the same stance as you about the shows, why waste the money or the time? Its money and time that could be spent better elsewhere.
Regards,
Lee
The only thing I will say about going to shows is that sometimes you'll find that people are more willing to do business with you after a face to face meeting. And I chalk this more up to e-mails getting lost in spam filters than a sense of "I need to see you to trust you" kind of thing. So, sometimes going to show will get you a point of contact that you've been trying to make for months.
At the same time, the shows can be really hard to have a conversation with someone. I recall last Phoenix Forum in March trying to get some business done with someone who was really interested, but I couldn't compete with his cell phone and the dozens of people who continually interrupted us with "Oh my God, you're here, I haven't seen you for ages."
I do think there's value in going to shows, but as an independant webmaster, I'd just have to pick and choose. Internext in Vegas ... it's straight, not worth it, Internext in Florida ... it's small, no one goes, Phoenix Forum in March ... always been a good show for me, but now with a Gay Phoenix Forum in October, I'd probably pick the latter (if its going to continue), GAYVN in San Francisco ... looks like an industry award thing more than a show. The smaller shows that pop up every other month, I just couldn't justify going to any of them. As far as the European shows go ... those people are still, for the most part, afraid of the Internet ... it wouldn't be worth going.
Cheers
Michael
Well I don't know about you guys, but if I just stayed in Austin all the time, mostly by myself in a room with this computer, I'd go apeshit. :high:
There's all kinds of values into attending shows.
Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
Drag on up and visit with us!
As one of the smaller guys...I can tell you that I have found that all the I have attended to be worthwhile.
That being said, I enjoyed the emphasis on networking at the Gay Phoenix Forum rather than the massive trade show style of some shows.
I can easily see attendence at GPF to grow as the word gets out on what a great show it was.
I prefer to do business only with people I have met in person, and shows like this give me an opportunity to meet and determine if they are the type of people I would like to associate myself with.
I agree with Chad about the hotels, and everytime we attend the AVN or Internext show in Vegas we ALWAYS stay at a different hotel that is a short walk away. $400 for a night is insane. Maybe if they moved the AVN date away from the Electronics Show rates would go down...but again that show is more for the fans than trade...so it makes sense to have it when all the business people are in town.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadknowslaw
Thanx, Chad, for a well-stated opinion about the continued relevance of the shows. Seems all I ever hear from webmasters about why they don't go is "It's not cost-effective for us."
One of my favorite things said on the panel of the Gay Phoenix Forum this year was what Brian Dunlap had to say about why the shows are important.
Dunlap later emphasized the continued validity of print advertising versus Web advertising (“Don’t overlook the value of offline advertising,” he warned), and spoke at length about the value of attending shows. “Showing up to shows is not always about the return on investment,” he offered. “It’s more of a branding aspect—a return on investment that you will see over the long run. If you’re looking at the numbers as soon as you get home, you’re forcing yourself to be disappointed. There is real value in showing and supporting these things.”
I think that about sums it up for me. Obviously, if you just don't have the money to go, it makes sense that you probably won't go. But for those who have the resources to attend, I think it's a no-brainer. The fact of the matter is that if you want business to get done at the shows, then business WILL get done. Any show is only as good as YOU yourself make it.
Internext 2006 wasn't perfect. Oh well. Let's move on. Everybody stumbles once in a while. It's good to stumble. It makes you reasses and reorganize. I'm confident that Internext 2007 will be a much more relevant show for webmasters -- even the gay ones.
Those who skipped the Florida show because they were disappointed with the Vegas show, however, truly missed out on a fun, productive (emphasis on productive) show that could have been good for business. Oh well. Your loss. :)
http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?P...tent_ID=277209
Definitely agree with you, Dziner. Nothing takes the place of face-to-face contact, no matter what the situation is. As an example, How many times have any of us seen someone on one of the gay hookup sites who was tentative about meeting up? And then you ran into that person at a bar or something and suddenly everything just fell into place and it was on? That happens to me all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
It works the same way when it comes to doing good business. Taking the time and making it a point to personally connect with someone you want to do business with is essential in my book. It's too easy to sit behind the comfort of your office and do business via email and the phone, but that's just not the best way of doing business to me. Good, productive business is handled the old-fashioned way, with a firm handshake and a personal connection. That's the best way to ensure that your partnership will come to something lucrative for both of you. I think it's just too easy to make bad business decisions when you don't have a sense of the person you might be affecting.
That's what I think anyway. For those who feel that they are doing just fine without attending the shows, all the power to you. If it works for you, run with it. But, apart from the fact that AVN throws two of the best shows in the industry, I would definitely attend if I had my own site (which I will).
AJ and I constantly discuss the value (or lack thereof) for the shows we attend.
As far as Gay Phoenix Forum, we suspected all along that the first year of the event would, for the most part, have people that had already attended other shows -- with no real track record, it was a risky proposition for a new or smaller webmaster to make the financial commitment -- but both of us did talk to a lot of people who were coming to their first show, and we actually walked away with more new business than at any other show we've been to so far.
I hope that the GayVN summit in San Francisco will have a similar value, though if it's as pricey as other AVN events, it will probably repel a lot of smaller webmasters.
I have to strongly disagree with those who say there isn't real benefit, or a weak cost-benefit ratio. Even smaller affiliates and program owners can meet face-to-face with the people that can grow their businesses, and I can tell you that a large number of the good business relationships we've developed have come from ongoing discussions we've had with people that we got to know at the shows. I doubt seriously that some of the connections and opportunities we have now would have come about if we had not had the opportunity for "face time", and I DON'T agree that many of those situations would have developed from email-only or phone-only introductions.
I guess a lot depends too on your personality. I'm actually really shy in social settings, and so it's a major challenge for me to just walk up randomly to people and say "Hi, I'm Chip with Gaybucks, what do you do?" even though I know that people will be receptive. I've learned to be better about it because it's a necessity if I'm going to go to shows, but if you spend the money to go and can force yourself to do that if it isn't in your nature, it will *definitely* pay off.
Plus, if you choose to do so, you can use the shows as opportunities to convey the "personality" of your company and attract like-minded people to work with you; that's a lot harder to do on the boards or through emails and ads.
Yes, in terms of immediate return, the money might better be spent in the short term on advertising or content or adwords or whatever, but I think at least a major portion of the value of showing up show after show is in letting people know your company is serious about growth, it's around to stay, and creating the branding so that when someone says "I am looking for (whatever you offer)", then your company's name will come to mind immediately.