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No banners or adverts allowed on first / entry page! :sleepy:
This is a really early Christmas gift from our friends at Gay Demon I guess, does anyone remember them saying anything about this change before they just started rejecting sites? I am sure I will work something out, but this really does suck.
Im sure Bjorn will pick up on this thread soon and explain, but no i dont recall that change being made.
I am sure I will work around whatever, but was really blindsided by all this. The new year has not even started yet and I am already missing 2006 :crybaby:
bump :signhere:Quote:
Originally Posted by samebb
I'm not speaking for Bjorn, but you know I don't disagree with his new policy. I've seen a lot of these galleries and they're disceptive, shunting off traffic to a sponsor rather than giving the surfer the free gallery that they're looking for and were promised.
Link list owners need to protect their products, too. Their surfers are looking for free galleries, so give them what they're looking for, or at least play fair. "Click here to see these hot guys" right at the top of the first page with a snazzy banner" and "Enter gallery" buried at the bottom of the page where no one bothers to look. It's a load of crap.
If a link list continues to allow this kind of deceptive tactic, then surfers find some place else to go.
Contrary to popular opinion, link lists do not exist solely to send YOU traffic, they are entities that are trying to make money just like you. If you're not going to submit a quality product, then live without the traffic.
I have worked quite closely with Bjorn and he's a really generous guy. We've swapped links and helped one another out in countless ways. He's a fare guy. I don't screw him and he doesn't screw me. And while we have competing products we see the value in helping one another over trying to out-do one another. If more webmasters would have the same air of co-operation, we'd all be a lot better off.
Michael
Now don’t get me wrong about all this its not the end of the world or anything, but lets but lets not BS each other. This will cut the profitable traffic they send each sites by 50-60% right off the bat, and this has little to do with BAD webmasters. This is about the profitability of their site, if you want to make rules about false enter buttons or some other truly deceptive BS a few webmaster do then that’s fine or just do not accept those sites.
What I see is the real problem is that the directory model is not working very well anymore, and some of the bigger directories are in what should be a resizing period for their staffs, but instead are trying to make up for loses by going after affiliates. This is a really bad idea if you ask me, but what can I do (maybe bitch a bit)
I do love how some Reps try to turn things around on the affiliates and make it sound like they caused this or that, and are almost worthless.
No it wont, if anything it will increase the amount of traffic going to your sites as they become less cluttered with ads, in turn increasing the amount of repeat traffic that Bjorn gets, in turn, increasing the amount of traffic that his submitters get.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Regards,
Lee
I don’t know about all that Voodoo Economics stuff man, personally I do not like to be trickled down upon from above (hey that’s just me)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Then why don't you put your "enter" button right beside the sponsors banners?
And Lee's right. If surfers are given a quality product, they'll be back for more. That means more of your galleries get clicked and more surfers see your sponsor's product.
This is exactly what killed the AVS market -- webmasters more interested in selling a paysite than selling the AVS product or making a quality product for the AVS. Eventually the surfers just moved off because 90% of AVS galleries were crap.
Michael
This from the guy that said not 6 months ago how wonderful the AVS system was, while calling me stupid for even saying it was DEAD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
As far as what killed the AVS market it was the REP’s with their shortsighted view of the future and complete inability to innovate. All the AVS companies did was blame affiliates, rather than trying to market what they where offered “for free” better. And at the same time made more and more rules making if less and less profitable to even try to make better sites. This in the end spelled DEATH for AVS, and these free link directories are starting to do the same thing now.
What are you going to call me stupid now for saying these Free and AVS directress are on life support as we speak? How about this then going at this rate directorates as we know them will be gone in 2-4 years, and will be nothing more than a collection of affiliate codas and upsells created and maintained solely by the directory itself. How long will it take for them all too become stale, safe, boring and outdated then?
That is what killed the AVS/AEN business model, in terms of traffic, it is far from dead though.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Regards,
Lee
Sorry I should have been more clear. My apologies. I should have said that it was all the crap that killed AVS for most webmasters. I'm still alive and kicking and making a ton of money in AVS and I know others who are as well. All the lazy webmasters making crappy galleries moved on to other things leaving all the traffic to those of who would produce a good product. So, thank you, I appreciate the cheques. AVS isn't dead, it's just dead to all the scammers, charlatans, and carpetbaggers who want to peddle their snake oil.
As far as the all the AVS rules, well every time webmasters try to pull off some bone-head trick to scam more traffic, AVS has to protect themselves. Same goes with link lists and TGPs. So lots of rules are implement that make everyone's life miserable.
The problem with people like you Max is that you're always trying to get as much possible by putting in as little effort as you possibly can. It's jack ass strategies like this that just pisses off surfers and makes it all the more difficult for people with good quality products to make money. Scammers cause surfers to tar and feather the whole industry as scammers. If you would spend half as much time creating a quality product as you do thinking of ways to cheat the system, you'd be so much better off.
Michael
Granted man, Dead is a relative term in this case, but I do not blame affiliates for this. If the AVS systems problem was traffic then the should have been worrying on providing it rather than bitching about affiliates finding a harder and harder time generating traffic or selling their programs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
What AVS did (allot like directories are doing now) was slash the traffic the returned to affiliates, made all kinds of rules that hurt sales, push their own sites in all the prime spots in the directory, and just generally drain the model dry.
You can try to take back the AVS thing man if ya want, but I have to live in the real world. The ghost of AVS will be around for awhile I am sure, but its over for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
Come on man, I know you have been a Rep for awhile, but some of us have to live out here in the real world. I can not spend hours and hours on one site that will get traffic maybe for a week or less then be placed in absurdity for all time. If the site got a huge amount of traffic for that week maybe, but that does not happen anymore. Personally I think these Representatives, Marketing Directors, Lawyers, Financial Advisers, and countless button pushers in their nice safe little jobs are the once destroying this industry.
You can blame the affiliates all you want, but it takes a bigger man too see the problem and fix it rather than just trying to get every dime out of people you can, while you still can.
First of all, in case you missed the post, I'm not a rep for any AVS. I left my full-time job in June of this year. I'm working independently just like you.
Second, I am still making money off AVS galleries that I created three years ago. I write good copy that scoops up the traffic from search engines by the bucket full. So while I agree that a gallery I created three years ago might not be pulling in much traffic from the AVS search engine (because everyone is looking for what's new) those three-year old galleries are far from dead. And all of those galleries linked together in one big hub create a "Holy Shit" factor for the surfer when they arrive at any of my galleries.
"I can not spend hours and hours on one site that will get traffic maybe for a week or less then be placed in absurdity for all time." You've got to change with the flow, Max. One of the biggest problems with AVS webmasters was so many of them always did what they always did. When their results continued to diminish instead of trying something new, they just complained that what they always did wasn't working, so it must be someone else's fault.
I can't sell a TGP membership to save my life. That doesn't make TGPs a dead duck, it just means I don't know how to make money at them. Plenty do. I just don't have the inclination or the time to figure out how to make money in the TGP market. So I don't try. For me, TGPs are "dead" like AVS is dead to you -- too many lookers, not enough buyers -- but there are still lots of people making a killing in the TGP market. God bless them.
Just like the days of filling a paysite full of leased feeds and expecting the surfers to eat it up are over. You have to spend "hours and hours" Max or you're not going to get the return. Sorry, would you buy something it took someone 15 minutes to throw together -- and looked like it? I wouldn't.
Michael
a tgp membership? do you mean sell a membership to a paysite using a gallery that receives tgp traffic?
btw, i messaged bjorn so i expect that when he's awake, we'll hear from him.
Well first off I would like to welcome you (a bit late I guess) to the dark side of things, I thought you still have one foot in and one foot out by still working with some of these AVS and companies as an advisor. But hey I have been wrong before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
I think we are taking some of the “AVS Dead” thing a bit too far, Yes I do still list sites in some AVS directories, and plan to attempt to work with a few more directly next month when I do a soft open for my affiliate program. All this said, I think the whole AVS thing has now gone down a road they will never come back from now. I just wish some of these free directories would see what AVS did and how that turned out for them, so they could stop before its too late.
What I do not understand is why they (AVS) dose not take more responsibility for this, after all when it really was a true AVS model we had a way to make sales by saying it was the “LAW” but after that edge was taken away from the affiliates the AVS companies did NOTHING to improve sales, rolled over and died. No real attempts to improve their tours, or offer more at a lower price all that stuff was forgotten in favor or blaming affiliates, ripping off surfers, and redirecting traffic.
I am with you with all this TGP stuff man, I hate it but think I will keep trying seems one of the only options that will be open to us soon.
You did not have to bug him about it Bass, I am sure he will be around sometime, and this is not a personal attack on him or his site really.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Sorry, that's exactly what I meant. Max tends to make me crazy and my fingers type faster than my brain can think.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Michael
And see, this is the problem. When people started working the AVS market -- or a link list for that matter -- as a means of getting traffic to their paysite, then they're not really caring about creating a good product for the AVS or even promoting it. All they want is the AVS's traffic and if they happen to sell a $19.95 UGAS membership along the way, that's gravy, but it's not their goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Now, multiply you by several hundred, or thousands, and you've got tons of webmasters using AVS to get traffic to their paysites. They couldn't give a fig about what the surfer thinks of the AVS, they just want the traffic. So you get thousands of galleries that look like they don't give a shit and they're just pushing other paysites, and the surfer thinks, "Wow, this AVS really sucks." The surfers start to leave, and then, the webmasters say, "Wow, the AVS really sucks." The AVS has to keep plugging up the holes to keep whatever traffic they're getting. And the webmasters say, "Wow, this AVS really sucks and they have so many rules."
If webmaster would have put more time into building quality galleries that actually helped the AVS look good, then surfers might have stayed longer, and everyone would have had access to the traffic. The AVS would have been happy because they were selling lots of memberships. You would have been happy because you were selling AVS and paysite memberships.
But like everything else in this business, everyone sucks the bucket dry and then complains that the bucket is dry. No one was ever putting anything back in. So then they say, "Hey where's the water?" Someone says, "There's lots of water over here in TGP land." And off everyone runs to start sucking up the new water. Then TGPs starting drying up, but someone said, "Oh there's lots water water over here in review site land and blog land." And off we go again. We've got 4 bajillion blogs that are basically doing what we all did at the beginning of AVS -- three pictures on a page with a "BUY THIS" button. I guess we didn't learn a thing.
Oh brother, I'm going back to CSI, it's more fun.
Michael
The real problem with AVS is that their program became much harder to sell, at the same time places to list them dried up. I can not lose money trying to sell something that people really did not want anymore, if their programs really works hell yes I would send those site all the traffic I could. After all this AVS thing does work very will to redirect traffic to other spongers on the same page (only thing most webmasters do with it now days) But the fact I and many many other are not doing it should say loads.
Yes if the AVS directories had created inner galleries more like full member sites and provided videos/movies as well as maybe live cam’s and some other stuff really cheap so we could use it to market the programs, and place the “webmaster” links in more of a bonus section, as well as create places to generate traffic for their services, like free/avs directories (as well as pay for listing the directory)and such that they could use others work/content to promote their program as well as a dozen other things I can come up with off the top of my head maybe yes they would be around proving good traffic and sales for just about everyone now days. But what did they do? And how do you think that worked out?
Its not really the affiliates job to make the sale after they get them to your site, that YOUR job man. I am sure I could talk till I am blue in the face, and no one connect with any AVS site will admit any responsibility for this titanic of a disaster we are all watching slip below the waves from our own isolated life rafts.
I can see how AVS might have had a few problems, but the fact they really never even tried when they had a good thing going is a real shame. Sound like they spent to much time with plugging holes in the dike, when the should have been taking all of us too higher ground.
You miss the whole point of the AVS model. When AVS started, they had no content, they had no premium areas. The webmasters created the product. The AVS acted as the hub that received the traffic, sent it back out to other galleries, did the processing of the memberships, and maintained the passwords. But the AVS itself had no premium product to sell in the beginning. The webmaster's gallery was the product. And that was probably the biggest mistake AVS made, relying on other to create the product they were selling. Can you imagine if Corbin Fisher or Randy Blue relied on pictures and videos shot and submitted by others?
Premium membership areas only began after the original product was created. It was a way to increase revenue because they weren't cutting it on $19.95 a year.
Michael
Sure I know all that man, and at the time it was fine what really sold memberships was this cheap price and this Age Verification stuff. But after the big change when they where no longer really a AVS anymore I do not see how anyone could not see some problems coming then. That was the time to act, hell I am sure I would have over reacted if I was them, creating more of a hybrid system for sure. Maybe a 9.95 monthly membership to access their members/AVS site as well as free access to all their “bonus” or affiliate sites for that month. I would have also created separate tours, for the top 5 categories so could break it up a bit.
Premium membership areas where a ok idea, but the AVS sites way over charged for them, and this I am sure this did not make viewers really that happy later on when they figured out they where way overpaying for this stuff. Hell I think UGAS has a 50$ membership or some crap, for that I could get a guy to come to my house to give me head LOL
Im so sick of hearing that AVS is dead. I got a check yesterday for some mancheck sites. I have never marketed these particular sites in any way shape or form. The sales came from the list. Im know wondering what i could do if i did market them properly, which is this weeks decision to be made.
What im saying is that if you can sell avs sites without even trying, avs income is far from dead.
Again max, just because you cant sell avs passes doesnt mean that no one can.
I know of people making thousands of dollars a month just with sex key. People do it and do it well.
most webmasters expect the impossible. they want a link list to send them tons of great quality traffic but they expect the linklist webmaster to accept sites that have the very minimum amount and quality of content, have no personalities whatsoever and are littered with ads.
now, let's think logically. are surfers likely to keep coming back to a website where most of the free sites listed offer pages so covered with ads that you can't find the enter link or galleries - and when you DO find the galleries, there is very little content, all low quality? i can't see a lot of incentive for surfers finding sites like that to bookmark the link list that sends them to that content - can you? but without bookmarkers, how can the link lists send tons of traffic?
people were outraged when tgps started allowing no more than 2 or 3 sponsor links per gallery. i was fine with it - i've always found that the quality of the ads make the sale, not the number of them. sure, it means more experimenting and more time involved in making sites or galleries with less ads but this IS a job ;)
I guess I will just PM you a example of my sites so we can talk when you have time if that’s cool man, I really do appreciate you and your service. All this just hit me out of the blue I have been sending you sites for years now with out 1 problem that I knew about. Well anyway I have sent you this site, looking forward to talking with ya.
Thanks
Sean
Lets get real here for a second. I love gaydemon but at the end of the day, i submit to you to get traffic. You take sites because thats the reason people come to your site. If not, why list the sites?
Sure you have other content, your probably one of the better sites for that, but you also need submitted sites to keep the visitors returning hunting for new porn.
Im not having a go, but to bleat that you only get 1% of traffic back as prooving that us submitters take take take and dont give back, is frankly rediculous.
I agree that webmasters need to do decent sites, good content and easy to navigate, but they also need to put up links and banners to make money.
All im saying is that you give to us with the traffic and we give to you by providing a reason to come your site and keeping the content fresh.
(btw i agree with this new rule and any rule that imrpooves sites)
He's not bullshitting you. I run a link list and a TGP and the amount of traffic I get from reciprocal links is so marginal that I wonder if it's even worth the both. I have one webmaster who submits about 15-20 AVS sites a week and I pick up about 50 clicks a month from his recips.
Gay Demon gets so much of his traffic, as do I, from search engines.
Michael
I dont think and never said he is bullshitting about that. What im saying is that the people you get from se are looking for the porn sites we provide.
To make out that the ll's give all this traffic and take our sites as some sort of favour is missleading. People go to link lists for the list of porn sites.
Thats what we give in return, new sites for the list.
Chicken or the egg?Quote:
Originally Posted by marcjacob
Yes, surfers hit the LL's and TGPs to get their porn but, the submitters send their sites to those places because of the traffic they get in return. If a submitter didnt get traffic back, they wouldnt submit in the first place.
Ultimately what it comes down to is exactly what has been described above, for sites to remain profitable and highly trafficked, the quality of submissions needs to be increased, if they arent, that traffic flow will find somewhere else to get their porn, then everyone suffers, the site owners and the submitters.
Just a quick FYI too, 80% of all traffic that hits our free sites leaves on the page between the index and the actual 'content' area of the site, meaning an FPA or navigation page, the index pages function initially was to show 'good faith' on the part of free site submitters when it came to 'warning' surfers about adult content, so that if you ever got taken to court, you could show some 'due diligence' in at least attempting to stop children accessing pornography.
The fact is, as the adult industry has become flooded with more and more webmasters in the last 8 years the role of an index page has become blurred, they are now considered as prime real-estate for marketing, often showing highly graphic adult images and banners, thus watering down the effect of the 'warning' located on the same page, just something to think about.
At the end of the day, you submit your sites to get traffic, in order to provide you with that traffic, the LL and TGP owner needs your submissions, its an equal trade off.
Regards,
Lee
Sorry I didn't mean to offend you when I said he wasn't bullshitting, wasn't acusing you of anything. But really, running my owner link list, I really see things from the other side. I see how much Gay Demon is sending me and how little I get in return from recips from other webmaster's galleries. So when Bjorn said, "1%" I thought, yep it really is that low. I was quite amazed actually because when I started The Pig I figure that traffic would just roll in like crazy.
But it doesn't.
And I guess I'll be going on the shit list, too, because I'm just about to institute a no FHG policy on Gay Porn Pig. When I started the list, I took anything just to build traffic. But I've been inundated with the same FHGs over and over again. It's just not helping me create a quality listing. And if I want a directory full of FHGs, I can add my own.
Michael
The only bit i didnt really like was the idea that lists are doing us a favour and that we do nothing in return because we do.
Okay, maybe that was a generalization. A lot of webmasters do as little as they have to, and certainly a lot of webmasters do nothing if there's nothing in it for them. Not all certainly, but a lot. That's why when a webmaster goes the extra mile, I give them an OINK in my directory.
Michael
Good job! Nice to see you're on track with maintaining a clean site with quality traffic and content.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaydemon
I'm glad you're addressing new issues that diminish the quality and integrity of your product. Good move :bunny:
Thanks for clarifying that, and yes i 100% agree that sites submitted shouldnt be rubbish but good. And i 100% agree that you need to refuse banner farms and othe tat to keep your list clean. I never, and would never, disagree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaydemon
Like i say Gaydemon is a great list, among the best that i sub too.
I have looked at my sites after reading all this. I hope i produce good sites, clean with content surfers want to jerk off too. We all have a responcibility to keep the industry going. Surfers wont keep buying if all we offer them is shite.
I think Bjorn's approach is great. I don't see how long term growth can occur for any of us by allowing, listing, or building shoddy sites. If the directory/LL owner makes the surfer feel safe we all benefit. I build my freesites clean as a pin and don't beat surfers over the head with advertising. I have found the cliche 'less is more' to be true.
I've only submitted a few sites to GD but Bjorn has accepted all.
By the way, I'm new here, so "Hello to everyone".
I work in several niches but Woofy Town is by far my favorite project.
I know a few of you have seen it.