CCBill - What The Fuck?

You have just refunded 2 memberships to 2 different sites... After they have had access to the members area for OVER 3 hours!!!!

I mean what the fuck are the cunts in customer service thinking?

Should we just give out free memberships to every surfer?

Dont get me wrong, looking after customers is fine, but not when they have over 3 hours to download everything that they want... It takes 10 minutes to shoot your load.

You know i love you guys but there needs to be some kind of fucking limit on time that you guys allow a refund, this is just rediculous imho.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Lee

You have just refunded 2 memberships to 2 different sites... After they have had access to the members area for OVER 3 hours!!!!

I mean what the fuck are the cunts in customer service thinking?

Should we just give out free memberships to every surfer?

Dont get me wrong, looking after customers is fine, but not when they have over 3 hours to download everything that they want... It takes 10 minutes to shoot your load.

You know i love you guys but there needs to be some kind of fucking limit on time that you guys allow a refund, this is just rediculous imho.

Regards,

Lee

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Lee, you're lucky it was only 3 hours.....I've seen a couple of refunds after a complete day of access...talk about getting pissed. One customer got a refund after downloading nearly 2GB of video content...AND...he came back 2months later (with a differant cc for sign-up) and did it again.

It should be up to the webmaster ONLY to issue a complete refund. It would be nice to see an option in the CCBill system that would allow for a partial refund.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Time was, the staff that handled refunds was instructed to give the customer a very hard time and only do a refund if they got the idea the customer was going for a chargeback immediately.

But recently, it seems the refund staff will give a refund to anyone that asks.

I think that because CCBill absorbs the chargeback fee, they probably figure it's cheaper to give back OUR money than have the possibility of paying for a chargeback, not to mention the potential negative impact of a chargeback.

I agree it should be the site owner's choice. I also believe that the site owner should be able to fight a chargeback... but every time I've tried to provide the data, on how much use a customer had before charging back... no one at ccbill was interested.

Lee,
Just insert a line into your TOS (no one reads them anyway) that states that if they ask for a refund or chargeback that you have the right to publish their name and billing address, phone number, etc. on your website....

Or contact their spouse, etc.

Then when you see a refund, you can just send a nice email pointing to that part of the TOS, along with a link where they can charge the money back.

Just a thought....let me know if it works and I will do it on my site.

:china:

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Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

Lee,
Just insert a line into your TOS (no one reads them anyway) that states that if they ask for a refund or chargeback that you have the right to publish their name and billing address, phone number, etc. on your website....

Or contact their spouse, etc.

Then when you see a refund, you can just send a nice email pointing to that part of the TOS, along with a link where they can charge the money back.

Just a thought....let me know if it works and I will do it on my site.

:china:

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That is an absolutely BRILLIANT idea. I wish I'd thought of it!! Now watch CCBill claim there's something in their agreements that prevents us from doing that.

Seriously, if anyone wants to check it out and see if it would fly, I'd be game.

One could even set up a page and seed it with fake names and addresses (or names and addresses of friends who would be willing to take calls from scared members) and include that link in the nice email.

i'd talk to a lawyer first. i'm sure there must be about a zillion privacy laws they could get you on.

btw, if the choice is a refund or a chargeback, i'll take the refund every time - and i hope ccbill will give it because if their chargebacks go up, we'll only have one u.s. adult processor left.

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Originally Posted by basschick

btw, if the choice is a refund or a chargeback, i'll take the refund every time - and i hope ccbill will give it because if their chargebacks go up, we'll only have one u.s. adult processor left.

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Id choose the chargeback any day over a full refund.

At least with a CB 1 or 2 months down the line the affiliate sending the sale actually gets paid for the initial sale and it doesnt look like X amount of members called and complained about the sites.

I can eat chargebacks, these two sales if they became a CB would quit easily be covered by our monthly in-house sales, im just pissed that right now, there is absolutely nothing that can be done about this, a surfer can happily go on his way joining site, after site, after site, after site and get refund, after refund, after refund, etc etc etc...

Its just fucking stupid.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by basschick

i'd talk to a lawyer first. i'm sure there must be about a zillion privacy laws they could get you on.

btw, if the choice is a refund or a chargeback, i'll take the refund every time - and i hope ccbill will give it because if their chargebacks go up, we'll only have one u.s. adult processor left.

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Absolutely, privacy laws would come into play in a big way, plus VISA, when a customer writes to them...and they will, will absolutely pull your rights to use VISA.

Bill

This happens every once in a while with us too...just don't get too upset, its all part of the business (unfortunately).

cheers,
Luke

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Originally Posted by Chilihost

This happens every once in a while with us too...just don't get too upset, its all part of the business (unfortunately).

cheers,
Luke

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Luke,

Thats the problem though it shouldnt be part of the business.

You dont go to BestBuy or CircuitCity, buy a 52" plasma TV, use it for the football season then take it back and say it wasnt what you wanted... Plus get a full refund.

It doesnt happen in real-life and it shouldnt happen online and these processors need to start taking a stance against this sort of shit.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Lee

Luke,

Thats the problem though it shouldnt be part of the business.

You dont go to BestBuy or CircuitCity, buy a 52" plasma TV, use it for the football season then take it back and say it wasnt what you wanted... Plus get a full refund.

It doesnt happen in real-life and it shouldnt happen online and these processors need to start taking a stance against this sort of shit.

Regards,

Lee

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Best Buy doesn't have to worry about Visa or Mastercard shutting off their merchant account if their chargeback ration is a little high either.

I can't believe you would rather eat the chargeback. I'd rather not have
one. Refund, okay, the guy's a bad customer and cost me some money. Chargeback, get too many of these and i'm out of business. I'll take the former.

Would you rather a refund, or a CB?

If a surfer joins, and regrets it, give them a credit. It avoids CB's. Don't you think CCBILL knows a bit more than us about credits?

I would think that Best Buy would have an easier time in dealing with it, as they have a physical signature to use in proving their claim, while online operations don't, hence the readiness I think for companies like ccBill to offer refunds rather than fight chargebacks.

Also, is there not a CC penalty that goes with each chargeback from Visa and MC? and don't all processors pass that on to the webmaster? So I am not so sure i'd be willing to take chargebacks over refunds.

my pennies worth :morning:

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Originally Posted by Lee

You dont go to BestBuy or CircuitCity, buy a 52" plasma TV, use it for the football season then take it back and say it wasnt what you wanted... Plus get a full refund.

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Wanna bet?! Have you ever worked retail? This kind of crap happens all of the time. Hell, you can return used diapers at Target. ;)

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Originally Posted by Lee

Thats the problem though it shouldnt be part of the business. You dont go to BestBuy or CircuitCity, buy a 52" plasma TV, use it for the football season then take it back and say it wasnt what you wanted... Plus get a full refund.

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But obviously people do. I recently saw a sign in a store saying that they would take no refunds or exchanges on Christmas trees or decorations after December 24. Obviously Walmart's no-questions-asked refund policy is conditioning Americans to believe they have the right to a full refund no matter what.

Michael

people have always tried to return stuff that was just plain stupid. my favorite is when people try to return things to a store they didn't buy them from that doesn't even offer those items.

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

But obviously people do. I recently saw a sign in a store saying that they would take no refunds or exchanges on Christmas trees or decorations after December 24. Obviously Walmart's no-questions-asked refund policy is conditioning Americans to believe they have the right to a full refund no matter what.

Michael

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The only real answer is attaching a physical product to the membership where you need to use a mail service to send product.

In mainstream, we get around the charge back issues because we have an invoice, shipping receipt and the ability to challenge the charge back with proof of service and goods rendered for payment.

However I don't see people signing up for a site if they need to have something mailed to them.

And with best buy, They do take returns BUT they also charge you a 10% restocking fee.

Maybe CCBill should Prorate the total time of membership.

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

Obviously Walmart's no-questions-asked refund policy is conditioning Americans to believe they have the right to a full refund no matter what.

Michael

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Once again, Wal-Mart seems to be at the route of all our problems...perhaps...no...too radical.

WAL-MART:whip:

i have a friend who joined a particular big program's site years ago, not really for the site so much as that they advertised a particular plugin (he didn't know it was a plugin but he saw his favorite girls on the tour).

he joined the site and the plugin was down. he called me on the phone, knowing i worked on the web and i figured out it was a plugin and suggested he wait a bit and try it again. he surfed the rest of the site, but not all that enthusiastically as he had seen most of the stuff before. then, after an hour, he tried the link again and it still didn't answer. when he tried again the next morning, the plugin still wasn't up and he called and asked for a refund.

he was told he had spent time in the site. he tried to explain that his only real interest had been in those girls but did not receive a refund and was not treated very courteously, so he charged back based on the fact that the only thing he was interested in the site was not available.

i thought he was justified. i know how much interest he had in the girls shown on that one page of the tour and how little he had in the rest of what was there - mostly old ounique content he had seen dozens of times. while most webmasters i know feel a chargeback is always the member's fault, i think it depends.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Id choose the chargeback any day over a full refund.

At least with a CB 1 or 2 months down the line the affiliate sending the sale actually gets paid for the initial sale and it doesnt look like X amount of members called and complained about the sites.

I can eat chargebacks, these two sales if they became a CB would quit easily be covered by our monthly in-house sales, im just pissed that right now, there is absolutely nothing that can be done about this, a surfer can happily go on his way joining site, after site, after site, after site and get refund, after refund, after refund, etc etc etc...

Its just fucking stupid.

Regards,

Lee

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and how do you think all of the paid sites content shows up on the torrents?
they join with fake cc or on a trial download everthing and post it. and work in groups often times for password trading forums

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

But obviously people do. I recently saw a sign in a store saying that they would take no refunds or exchanges on Christmas trees or decorations after December 24. Obviously Walmart's no-questions-asked refund policy is conditioning Americans to believe they have the right to a full refund no matter what.

Michael

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even walmart is ending this policy, or at least curtailing it to a level

some US stores are compiling databases of customers who are shopping and returning things too often, costing the stores money, and are planning to not allow these customers to shop there or return products

if I m not wrong, there have already been cases where returns have been disallowed because a customer has had too many in x number of months

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Originally Posted by jIgG

even walmart is ending this policy, or at least curtailing it to a level

some US stores are compiling databases of customers who are shopping and returning things too often, costing the stores money, and are planning to not allow these customers to shop there or return products

if I m not wrong, there have already been cases where returns have been disallowed because a customer has had too many in x number of months

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Gucci does this. I once had a friend who used to tell me how they refused to accept returns from some customers because their purchase to return ration was too high. In one case he had a customer that had a 105% return ratio...when i asked him how that's possible, he said the customer even returned gifts bought for him by others.

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Originally Posted by IdolKnights

The only real answer is attaching a physical product to the membership where you need to use a mail service to send product.

In mainstream, we get around the charge back issues because we have an invoice, shipping receipt and the ability to challenge the charge back with proof of service and goods rendered for payment.

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We used to think the same thing and sent all of our packages with signature required for this very reason.. until we were refused on several chargeback rebuttals where we used that as part of our supporting evidence of the order authenticity. In speaking with our merchant bank, they informed me that the ONLY way an online merchant is protected against chargeback is to have a signature that matches an ID in person. There is no other proof good enough to over come the charge associations bias towards the customer, even if it is apparant the customer is not being honest. We were specifically told that even though we have a positve AVS reading, a verification of address and phone, a CVV2 number verification, a delivery confirmation receipt signed by the same customer...it's still not good enough if the customer signs an affidavit saying the charge is unuauthorized.

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Originally Posted by IdolKnights

Maybe CCBill should Prorate the total time of membership.

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I, too, think this would make sense... sort of a pay what you use type of refund policy...however, that is not going to deter the customer from charging back if he is so inclined. That's why Third Party Processors have very liberal refund policies..because they know it's only a phone call and a fax away from a chargeback for the credit card holder.

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Originally Posted by tombarr

We were specifically told that even though we have a positve AVS reading, a verification of address and phone, a CVV2 number verification, a delivery confirmation receipt signed by the same customer...it's still not good enough if the customer signs an affidavit saying the charge is unuauthorized.

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This is when you take it to level two.

Upon dispute you contact the postmaster and have them file a report for interstate fraud (should the party be in another state)

This is your safety net. It does come with a few holes, but, Once a customer gets a call from the post office and hears about an investigation being placed on them for the possible charges of interstate fraud, the situation wraps up fairly quick.

With a well stated no return policy on the items for reasons listed, you then recontact the processor with the information of the postal charges, the customer correspondence and your terms listed on the site.

Tom,

That must vary by bank, because ours has reversed chargebacks based on a delivery signature.


And on an unrelated note, we just recently had a situation with a retailer of gay DVDs (a wholesale customer we've had for almost three years) attempt to do a chargeback against us.

We have switched nearly 100% of our wholesale customers to buy from our distributor, because we didn't want the hassle of the direct sales, and this guy insisted on continuing to buy from us, but didn't understand why we couldn't ship every one of his (dinky) orders the same day it was placed, so he got mad and said he was going to stop buying from us. We said fine, and he said he was sending back all of his unsold product. (We don't take returns, it's always been our policy.) So we agreed that, under the circumstances, we would refund him what he paid minus a 15% restock fee. He apparently didn't like the amount of the refund, and tried to charge back his most recent order, by claiming he'd never received it.

His bank actually got him and me and the bank's rep on the phone. I got him to admit that he had received the package, which totally blew his credibility with the bank rep. But then he said "You can't prove I received it, because you sent it postal service. I know how this works." Fortunately, the bank realized he was trying to scam us, and they made a notation in their records to the effect that the guy had lied and admitted it, and had indicated that he wanted to commit fraud.

Needless to say, we will never do business with the guy again.

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

Tom,

That must vary by bank, because ours has reversed chargebacks based on a delivery signature.

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Its not up to the merchant bank. It's up to the customer's bank. Their policies are not consistent from one bank to another. Some banks make it extremely easy for a customer to charge back, others don't. Some banks make it next to impossible for an online merchant to prove a charge, others are more accepting of a broader range of supporting documents... some banks give the merchant a chance to support the charge with docs, others, go straight to chargeback without any transaction inquiry.

our advice came from our merchant bank, and has generally been found to be true. We dont' have more than 1 or 2 chargebacks every month or two on more than 600 transactions a month, so it's not a bad situation.

It just pisses me off when I know a customer is scamming me and there's nothing I can do about it.. It makes me even more mad when they go straight to chargeback without even making inquiry...at least then i can just refund and not have to deal with the extra penalties or potential for merchant account problems.

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Originally Posted by tombarr

It just pisses me off when I know a customer is scamming me and there's nothing I can do about it.. It makes me even more mad when they go straight to chargeback without even making inquiry...at least then i can just refund and not have to deal with the extra penalties or potential for merchant account problems.

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What about using a chargeback collections company to make their life miserable? I did a quick search on the web and found a few. They take all your documentation, then go to collections for fraud.

i would do this - in fact, some sites do. but it won't help as far as your visa cb ratio. and make sure your collection agency understands websites - just in case there's a legit one in the bunch.

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Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

What about using a chargeback collections company to make their life miserable? I did a quick search on the web and found a few. They take all your documentation, then go to collections for fraud.

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