What if this happened...

[DonMike]

I think this whole issue boils down to people who start producing to grow their company, and people who start producing so they can get more sex.

Everyone has an underlying reason to do the job they do, im some cases with content production is must be simply the change of getting laid more.

IMHO

Sorry Sam, I have to disagree. I love my job, and I have been in the industry for five years now and was in the adult phone industry in the early 90's and none of it had anything to do with being around porn, getting laid, or wanting to be around models. My first job in the industry was quite by accident. I applied to a company without knowing it was involved in porn, but being very open about sex and sexuality I had no problem with it. I sought out the online porn industry after moving here to LA in 99 because I knew it was one of the few places where I could truly by myself. I could be open about being gay, open about being kinky, I could be inked and pierced, wear shorts and t-shirts to work, and not have to worry about walking on eggshells with every conversation I got into. Having worked in a mainstream company I had to give up all these things and I really hated it. Life is to short to spend all your time pretending to be somebody else.

Not saying I don't like to look at the occasional hot guy, but that's not the reason I do what I do, and I think a lot of us here are of the same mindset.

[deanb]

The porn business is a business that is built on the foundation of encouraging sexual activity among consenting adults. If a director and one of his models wish to engage in sexual relations during the course of their professional relationship, that's A-OK as far as I'm concerned. I can guarantee you that there are more than a few studio heads who have GOTTEN head from one or two of their exclusive models. The way I see it, as long as there wasn't any kind of promise of more work in return for sexual favors, then all the power to them.

I couldn't disagree with you more. There are plenty of studios out there that cast and fly models out, and use them in productions, having never met them face to face. I for one don't use a sit down interview technique. I go straight from seeing if they are interested, getting their pics, to getting them tested and shooting them (this happens over a period of time, of course).

That said, I think we all know that sex between a director and models happens, probably a lot more than any of us think or care really. Sex that is consentual between a model and a director is one thing. Having a model in for an interview, that you get to fuck for your own pleasure, is something completely different on the other hand. That seems like a set up on the directors part to get laid here and there. There are plenty of studios who don't have interview processes, and there are also plenty who never meet the model before picking them up at the airport.

Even if a company does face to face interviewing before giving jobs, you can tell usually right when the model walks in the door if he has the fit or not by his looks. I don't think you need a casting couch, bareback sex fest audition to figure it out. My guess is that if the model was taking 2 different guys cocks, then he probably wasn't half bad at getting fucked. $0.02

Not only is it alarming that the sex was required for the job, it was also the reason the model was denied the job, and I can't imagine how humiliated he must have felt.

[XXXWriterDude]

I couldn't disagree with you more. There are plenty of studios out there that cast and fly models out, and use them in productions, having never met them face to face. I for one don't use a sit down interview technique. I go straight from seeing if they are interested, getting their pics, to getting them tested and shooting them (this happens over a period of time, of course).

That said, I think we all know that sex between a director and models happens, probably a lot more than any of us think or care really. Sex that is consentual between a model and a director is one thing. Having a model in for an interview, that you get to fuck for your own pleasure, is something completely different on the other hand. That seems like a set up on the directors part to get laid here and there. There are plenty of studios who don't have interview processes, and there are also plenty who never meet the model before picking them up at the airport.

Even if a company does face to face interviewing before giving jobs, you can tell usually right when the model walks in the door if he has the fit or not by his looks. I don't think you need a casting couch, bareback sex fest audition to figure it out. My guess is that if the model was taking 2 different guys cocks, then he probably wasn't half bad at getting fucked. $0.02

Not only is it alarming that the sex was required for the job, it was also the reason the model was denied the job, and I can't imagine how humiliated he must have felt.

No no no. You didn't read my post carefully. I said it's never OK to have sex with a model during the interview process. I totally agree with you on that point. In regards to the situation that started this thread, I think the actions of that company were abhorrent, yes, and I agree that any company that requires that a potential employee have sex with the boss is skating on very thin ice.

But beyond that, I know of several situations where the studio head carried on an affair or had sex with a model or two, and it was entirely consensual and appropriate behavior.

My post was made more to try and temper all the piety going around in this thread. That's all. "Professionalism" is something that has been modified and re-defined in the porn business, so it's not always so cut and dry. It's up to each company to decide what works best for productivity and professionalism.

[Lee]

The porn business is a business that is built on the foundation of encouraging sexual activity among consenting adults. If a director and one of his models wish to engage in sexual relations during the course of their professional relationship, that's A-OK as far as I'm concerned.

But..

I think that, no matter what the profession, it's highly inappriopriate to coerce someone into having sex in order to get hired. That's fundamentally "wrong" in my book, and it's not behavior that I condone by any stretch of the imagination.

You have me confused Ken LOL

In one paragraph you say 'A-OK' and in a 2nd you say you think this type of behavior is 'wrong', whether in the interview process or the 'employee' status, doesnt matter, its still unprofessional.

You cant have it both ways my friend, you either want to have 'fun' by fucking the talent or you dont, which is it?

But all this talk about "professional" and "unprofessional" conduct in the porn business just sounds like a bunch of people who doth protest TOO LOUD.

Perhaps that is because those who arent professional in their 'porn' dealings are fucking the industry up for the rest of us, ever think about that? 3 years ago, about the same time that the mass newbie influx started, most paysites would retain over 3 months, some as long as 6 months on a regular basis, nowadays we're lucky to see retention past 3 months because the newbies have all but killed web porn by flooding the internet with freebies up the wazoo.

Porn isnt something surfers should be getting for free at link lists or tgps, its something they should be paying for.

We're not offering a public service to distribute free porn to the masses, we're trying to run a business, you dont see companies such as Walmart or BestBuy dropping off 32" plasma TVs along the side of the road willy-nilly in the hopes that maybe 1 out of every 300 people who picks one up will spend some money and actually buy the 51" version.

So many people in the industry are now of the mindset that 'porn' is about 'art' or 'expression' or {shudder} 'free'. It isnt, its about guys (and gals) getting their rocks off to other hot guys and girls and the individuals uploading porn to the web profiting of those surfers wanting to get their rocks off, by giving away as little as possible.

The fact we [the industry] started pandering to the surfers just shows how much we [the industry] have lost track of the bigger picture, again, if you go in to BestBuy and ask for a 32" plasma tv and tell the sales guy you want to take it home, fr as long as you want, and that you *might* come back in a few days to buy the 51" version, he'd laugh at you.. Actually no, he'd probably kick you out of the store and laugh at you, right after he announced your being in the store to everybody.

Throw stones if you like, but at least that's how I see it.

I dont mean to cause offence Ken but, for all intents and purposes, you actually 'arent' in the industry, you dont own free sites, you dont do TGP submission, you dont run paysites, you dont even promote other programs paysites as an affiliate, so you'll forgive me for not putting to much emphasis on what you think about the industry, you are seeing things from a totally different perspective than 99.9% of GWW Community members who 'actually' are 'in' the online porn 'industry'., because we live, breath, and work it pretty much 24/7/365 without paid vacations or weekends off.

There is a vast difference between writing about the business of porn and actually experiencing the business of porn and i guarantee you, if you werent working as a writer at AVN, you simply wouldnt cut it in the 'real' world of porn.

As i say i dont mean to have a go at you, or sound, how did you put it, sanctimonious, but the harsh reality of it is, if you had to work a paysite, submit TGP galleries or build free sites for a living, you'd be broke and out on the street, the same as most other writers and 'webmaster' orientated marketers in the industry would be.

Porn isnt 'art' it isnt about 'expression' its porn, nothing more, nothing less.

99.99% of the general webmaster community need to realize that ultimately, we're not in the business of entertaining people, we're in marketing business, our job is to sell porn to surfers, not give it away for free.

Regards,

Lee

[deanb]

But beyond that, I know of several situations where the studio head carried on an affair or had sex with a model or two, and it was entirely consensual and appropriate behavior.

This part, I really don't have a stance on. I mean, two people get to know each other, and stuff is going to happen. Look at hollywood, seems like ever star is finding his or her next fling on the set of a movie. Its kind of the same thing, when you are having sex on camera, emotions can run high, and things can happen. I don't have flings will my models, well probably because I'm not all that arracted to guys my own age, now get me on the set of some big bear leather daddies, and we may be talking..

The majors problem that I see with situation above is a) the casting couch technique for getting laid b) the lack of use of condoms and c) the utter disregard for the models feelings, emotions, and self esteem.

Models and producers are going to fuck, and nothing can be done about it.. What can be changed is the casting couch techniques for getting laid, and as an industry, we can send a message to others out there, that this is unacceptable.

[samebb]

Sorry Sam, I have to disagree. I love my job, and I have been in the industry for five years now and was in the adult phone industry in the early 90's and none of it had anything to do with being around porn, getting laid, or wanting to be around models. My first job in the industry was quite by accident. I applied to a company without knowing it was involved in porn, but being very open about sex and sexuality I had no problem with it. I sought out the online porn industry after moving here to LA in 99 because I knew it was one of the few places where I could truly by myself. I could be open about being gay, open about being kinky, I could be inked and pierced, wear shorts and t-shirts to work, and not have to worry about walking on eggshells with every conversation I got into. Having worked in a mainstream company I had to give up all these things and I really hated it. Life is to short to spend all your time pretending to be somebody else.

Not saying I don't like to look at the occasional hot guy, but that's not the reason I do what I do, and I think a lot of us here are of the same mindset.

You got the wrong end of the stick their hun :goof:

My point was everyone has reasons they do their job. Why do i do this work ? Well i got into the adult industry by accident to! I was a humble web designer who stumbled on it. And why do i do it ? Well the porn side of things is nothing to me. i do it because i love being self employed, i love making my own hours, i love being the person who decides what i do with my days.

Your reasons make sense to, even if they dont have anything to do with the porn side of things :bow:

[XXXWriterDude]

But..



You have me confused Ken LOL

In one paragraph you say 'A-OK' and in a 2nd you say you think this type of behavior is 'wrong', whether in the interview process or the 'employee' status, doesnt matter, its still unprofessional.

You cant have it both ways my friend, you either want to have 'fun' by fucking the talent or you dont, which is it?

Actually, Lee, I think I can have it both ways. As I said, it's up to each person and/or company to define for THEMSELVES what works best for them and what THEY feel is "professional" or not. That's the beauty of free will, and especially of consensual sex between mature adults.

My main point is that it's not up to the adult community to dictate what "appropriate behavior" is, because if it was, it would NEVER be agreed upon.

[XXXWriterDude]

I dont mean to cause offence Ken but, for all intents and purposes, you actually 'arent' in the industry, you dont own free sites, you dont do TGP submission, you dont run paysites, you dont even promote other programs paysites as an affiliate, so you'll forgive me for not putting to much emphasis on what you think about the industry, you are seeing things from a totally different perspective than 99.9% of GWW Community members who 'actually' are 'in' the online porn 'industry'., because we live, breath, and work it pretty much 24/7/365 without paid vacations or weekends off.

There is a vast difference between writing about the business of porn and actually experiencing the business of porn and i guarantee you, if you werent working as a writer at AVN, you simply wouldnt cut it in the 'real' world of porn.

As i say i dont mean to have a go at you, or sound, how did you put it, sanctimonious, but the harsh reality of it is, if you had to work a paysite, submit TGP galleries or build free sites for a living, you'd be broke and out on the street, the same as most other writers and 'webmaster' orientated marketers in the industry would be.

Porn isnt 'art' it isnt about 'expression' its porn, nothing more, nothing less.

99.99% of the general webmaster community need to realize that ultimately, we're not in the business of entertaining people, we're in marketing business, our job is to sell porn to surfers, not give it away for free.

Hey Lee, no offense taken. Because, frankly, you'll have to forgive me if I don't think that one person has the final say on how to run a business. You're entitled to your opinion, but as I basically disagree with everything you say here, I don't really put much credence in YOUR opinion either. So, as far as I'm concerned, it's all good.

[Squirt]

Before anyone jumps on the attack wagon (AGAIN), that's not to say that I'm endorsing the actions of the company in question. I think that, no matter what the profession, it's highly inappriopriate to coerce someone into having sex in order to get hired. That's fundamentally "wrong" in my book, and it's not behavior that I condone by any stretch of the imagination.

But all this talk about "professional" and "unprofessional" conduct in the porn business just sounds like a bunch of people who doth protest TOO LOUD.

I challenge your thoughts on people in the adult industry automatically having a sense of informalness as reality is quite the opposite.

Maybe it's different for the guy who just shoots the content with no model release forms, I.D.'s etc. but that isn't your audience here Ken. We are the people shooting the content, making the sites, marketing the sites, filing the paperwork, networking, etc. There are a lot of specific things we have to do to follow the law and to just stay in business, as you know.

[XXXWriterDude]

I challenge your thoughts on people in the adult industry automatically having a sense of informalness as reality is quite the opposite.

Maybe it's different for the guy who just shoots the content with no model release forms, I.D.'s etc. but that isn't your audience here Ken. We are the people shooting the content, making the sites, marketing the sites, filing the paperwork, networking, etc. There are a lot of specific things we have to do to follow the law and to just stay in business, as you know.

This is true, Squirt. But as anyone in the business knows, there is also a lot of informalness as well. Trade shows, for instance, where a good portion of the business is conducted during webmaster parties and over cocktails, or where sex shows are being filmed during gatherings and whatnot. The fact that sex is involved in business at all constitutes a level of informal behavior, because, let's be honest, sex was never meant to be commoditized or turned into a "business."

There are many different ways of running a business. I may not be a webmaster, but I've been involved in enough businesses to know that every business owner runs his or her business differently than the next business owner. Some are sticklers for what is traditionally deemed as "professionalism." Some are much more informal and laid-back.

What I reject is the notion that my own specific set of morals and ethics should be defined or dictated to me by others whose opinions I don't agree with. I think it's actually very possible to mix business with pleasure and still operate within a very strict coda of professionalism, but I leave it up to me and me alone to define what that is.

[Lee]

I think it's actually very possible to mix business with pleasure and still operate within a very strict coda of professionalism, but I leave it up to me and me alone to define what that is.

Ken, thats the problem, without having any first hand knowledge of how the 'business' of porn is run, all you have are 'thoughts' on how it works, based on 'your' ethics, morals and code of professionalism.

Oh hey, i just thought of something really cool you could try for a series of articles for AVN Online, why dont you (or one of the other staffers @ AVN) actualy spend a month 'in the shoes' of an actual webmaster, choose sponsors to promote, buy content, get yourself a new hosting account from scratch, build some galleries or free sites and see just how much work is actually involved, i guarantee you that whoever does this will change their morals, ethics and code of professionalism within a month.

If you can spend a whole month working as a webmaster, you'll start to see things from a whole new perspective, one that means you will understand why ethics, morals and professionalism wont cut it, one that will show you how even by following the rules, you get fucked by tgp and link list owners 'just because', one that will allow you to actually write about the idustry and actually realize that what you are writing is factual based on a larger populous, not just what you have been told by those you interview.

Im serious about this idea BTW, im pretty sure it hasnt been done before by any of the industry rags and it would certainly give you guys at AVN a lot of leverage in the industry once webmasters actually realize what you are writing about is stuff that you have actually practiced and experienced first hand :thumbsup:

So hows about it, do you think that would be something AVN could do for its humble readers? Afterall, AVN is already ahead in the game having been writing about the industry for god knows how many years, it should be real easy to turn a profit within the first 24 hours.

Regards,

Lee

[Squirt]

This is true, Squirt. But as anyone in the business knows, there is also a lot of informalness as well. Trade shows, for instance, where a good portion of the business is conducted during webmaster parties and over cocktails, or where sex shows are being filmed during gatherings and whatnot. The fact that sex is involved in business at all constitutes a level of informal behavior, because, let's be honest, sex was never meant to be commoditized or turned into a "business."

There are many different ways of running a business. I may not be a webmaster, but I've been involved in enough businesses to know that every business owner runs his or her business differently than the next business owner. Some are sticklers for what is traditionally deemed as "professionalism." Some are much more informal and laid-back.

What I reject is the notion that my own specific set of morals and ethics should be defined or dictated to me by others whose opinions I don't agree with. I think it's actually very possible to mix business with pleasure and still operate within a very strict coda of professionalism, but I leave it up to me and me alone to define what that is.

Everyone knows sex is a commodity. People have always traded sex for things :drunk: and who's dictating to you what your morals and ethics should be? Who's said there is only one way to run a business? Who said there isn't sex at the trade shows?

My point is that while there are aspects of the business that are fun and informal, being successful entails a lot of formalities and professionalism on the back end.

[XXXWriterDude]

Ken, thats the problem, without having any first hand knowledge of how the 'business' of porn is run, all you have are 'thoughts' on how it works, based on 'your' ethics, morals and code of professionalism.

Oh hey, i just thought of something really cool you could try for a series of articles for AVN Online, why dont you (or one of the other staffers @ AVN) actualy spend a month 'in the shoes' of an actual webmaster, choose sponsors to promote, buy content, get yourself a new hosting account from scratch, build some galleries or free sites and see just how much work is actually involved, i guarantee you that whoever does this will change their morals, ethics and code of professionalism within a month.

If you can spend a whole month working as a webmaster, you'll start to see things from a whole new perspective, one that means you will understand why ethics, morals and professionalism wont cut it, one that will show you how even by following the rules, you get fucked by tgp and link list owners 'just because', one that will allow you to actually write about the idustry and actually realize that what you are writing is factual based on a larger populous, not just what you have been told by those you interview.

Im serious about this idea BTW, im pretty sure it hasnt been done before by any of the industry rags and it would certainly give you guys at AVN a lot of leverage in the industry once webmasters actually realize what you are writing about is stuff that you have actually practiced and experienced first hand :thumbsup:

So hows about it, do you think that would be something AVN could do for its humble readers? Afterall, AVN is already ahead in the game having been writing about the industry for god knows how many years, it should be real easy to turn a profit within the first 24 hours.

I've actually pitched something similar, Lee. It was a "Spend a Day with a Webmaster" story, and there was some interest in doing it, but it's a matter of having the manpower to be able to not have one of the writers in the office. AVN Online's staff is small--only two dedicated staff writers at the present time--so to send one of us out for any longer than a day or two would be of great detriment to the magazine. However, it could be a really good assignment for a freelancer. I'll pitch it again, because I agree that it could be a very good feature.

I know what you're saying about me not having the first-hand knowledge about the industry, and you're right, but I've also talked with enough site owners and porn studio owners to know that what I'm talking about in this thread indeed DOES take place on a fairly regular basis -- and those companies are all still in business, and have reptuations for being rather professional. So, even if I may not be a webmaster at the present time myself, what I'm talking about is not out of the bounds of possibility, Lee.

[XXXWriterDude]

Everyone knows sex is a commodity. People have always traded sex for things :drunk: and who's dictating to you what your morals and ethics should be? Who's said there is only one way to run a business? Who said there isn't sex at the trade shows?

No one, actually, but based on all the pious grandstanding being tossed around in some of the posts in this thread, I was feeling a bit "coerced" into thinking a certain way. Some of the bandwagon self-righteousness of this business can get a bit out of hand.

[basschick]

a day isn't enough time to learn to make a single gallery, much less learn to create it, post it and then start to see the results (usually pretty poor for a newb). it takes either more than full time effort for weeks or else regular effort for months to get to really be a fairly well rounded webmaster.

spend a month as a webmaster full time and a person will have the very beginnings - not enough to make a living - of being a webmaster. the legal challenges, the various ways to get traffic - it's easy to talk and to hear about, but learning to do it is another story.