What will it take for American to give up guns?

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10-02-2006, 07:54 PM
marcjacob

What will it take for American to give up guns?

I know this wont be popular, but these are my thoughts on the School Shootings that once again are happening in the States.

This happened once in the UK, in Dunblane. It shocked the nation and within a year handguns where banned in the UK.

What will it take before America bans gun ownership? It seems to be a right of all Americans to have a gun.

I fully agree with the American idea that you can kill an intruder in your own home if you feel you need too, we in the UK have too tight laws on that. But when you have mass gun ownership, c*nts like the person who has just killed small kids, have easy access to guns. He decided for whatever sick reason, to go out "in a blaze of glory", and all he had to do was open his cupboard, pull out the (probably) legal guns, and head to the school.

This isnt a new thing, sadly, for America to face. So what has to happen before Americans decide to remove guns from their society? How many school kids have to die before people decide that guns shouldnt be this easy to get hold of? What price should the "right to own a gun" be set at? 50 kids? 200, 000? a million?

This isnt an attack on America. I Love America, id love to live there one day. I support America more that most people in the world do. This is my thoughts.
10-02-2006, 07:59 PM
Lee

Did you know that all the ban in the UK did was to legal gun holders (such as myself) was to to move the guns we owned out of the country?

There are still illegal firearms that can be gotten extremely easily in the UK if you know the right people to speak to.

I do not beleive the solution is banning firearms but putting tighter controls on ammunition supplies.

Regards,

Lee
10-02-2006, 08:02 PM
marcjacob

yes i did, but my point is that you have to know where to get them. it means that any old nut cant get guns that easy. if you remember the dunblane case was someone who legitimately owned a gun.

banning guns will never rid the world of them, it just makes it harder than opening a cupboard.
10-03-2006, 12:52 AM
Xstr8guy

In this country, the only thing people love more than jesus is their guns. Real gun control laws will NEVER happen in the U.S. just like we will never have true separation of church and state.
10-03-2006, 01:19 AM
chadknowslaw

The 2nd Amendment would need to be repealed. In all the years since 1789 only one amendment has been repealed -- the was the 21st Amendment ratified December 5, 1933 repealing the 18th Amendment --Prohibition.

Here is a trick question for the wanna be lawyers:

How many amendments were in the initial bill of rights, transmitted September 25, 1789 to the State's legislatures for approval ??
10-03-2006, 02:40 AM
Jasun

I'll never get rid of my guns.

but I also would never point my gun at another person.. not even in jest.

I also think that before one can shoot a gun, one should be licensed. I ride a motorcycle and can kill a person with it and I had to prove that i was capable of operating it without doing that before I was allowed on the street.

But yeah.. Some Americans are morons.
10-03-2006, 02:56 AM
chadknowslaw

I did give up my guns-- voluntarily! When I moved from Iowa to Arizona, I figured I really didn't need them anymore. I gave a really really sweet 9 mm semi-auto to a deputy sheriff friend of mine --it was built by a South African heavy arms manufacturer that dabbled in high-quality small arms. It was slender for smaller hands [like mine] and all edges smoothed for concealed carry. It had an anti-recoil mechanism under the barrel so it had almost zero kick. The arms dealer that sold it to me had been an unwavering fan of Glocks until he test fired the Vector I bought from him. Try as he might, that gun would not jam. It certainly was not the $79.95 piece of shit armed robbery weapon that Taurus manufactures.

Unlike many people I trained in using firearms before using them and like Jasun give firearms a lot of respect. I don't believe any gun intentionally hurt anybody, but there are a lot of idiots/cowards that use guns to hurt people and THOSE fuckers need to be controlled!
10-03-2006, 04:13 AM
gaybucks_chip

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadknowslaw

The 2nd Amendment would need to be repealed. In all the years since 1789 only one amendment has been repealed -- the was the 21st Amendment ratified December 5, 1933 repealing the 18th Amendment --Prohibition.

Is there not some controversy about the 2nd amendment's meaning? I remember some years ago somebody arguing that the 2nd amendment protects ownership of guns by "a militia", not by individuals. Dunno if that ever got sorted out, but if it got sorted out in favor of individual gun owners rights, how have the local bans been upheld as constututional?

Admittely, this is an area where my knowledge fits into a thimble with plenty of space left over :)
10-03-2006, 04:29 AM
chadknowslaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

Is there not some controversy about the 2nd amendment's meaning? I remember some years ago somebody arguing that the 2nd amendment protects ownership of guns by "a militia", not by individuals. Dunno if that ever got sorted out, but if it got sorted out in favor of individual gun owners rights, how have the local bans been upheld as constututional?

Admittely, this is an area where my knowledge fits into a thimble with plenty of space left over :)

There has been controversy regarding that meaning, but the Bill of Rights consistently refers to rights given to individuals. The overwhelming majority of caselaw and scholarly examination points to interpreting the 2nd Amendment as a right given to the people and not a right given to States to maintain militias.
10-03-2006, 04:31 AM
chadknowslaw

The answer to my trick question is actually "12". There were two proposed Amendments that were not ratified, so the ratified Bill of Rights contained only 10 Amendments.
10-03-2006, 04:38 AM
gaybucks_jeff

Americans will never give up guns... it is a strictly cultural... not legal issue... Lets face reality here
10-03-2006, 05:59 AM
Madame0120

:bs:
Blink! Keep your grubby hands off my Mossberg!
10-03-2006, 02:32 PM
Paco

I for one do not own a gun, or rifle - no need for either - and odds are I will never! I am not what some call a "hunter", so I find them truly pointless (to defend me is an extremely poor argument!).

The tool is NOT the problem! It is the "tool" brandishing the tool, or the idiot with the gun, that is using it. So, by simply removing the first weapon of choice, one has not done anything but forced the nut-job to use their second preference, such as a knife, or gasoline.

I am sure I do not need to remind others that there are a few countries, like Switzerland, that FORCE their citizens (compulsory gun ownership for military age males) to have a rifle in their home, at all times. Yet, they suffer with little to no problems! (A few instances of "domestic" violence, which will continue to happen, with or without the almighty boomstick!)

Switzerland (SZ) has just less than half the % of guns of the US, yet gun crimes/murders are 1/3 or less.

It is VERY clear that the minset is what sets both apart.
US: I want a lot of guns, 'cause they are cool, plus it is my god (? WTF) given right!
SZ: I do not want it, but I will keep it by my door, because I HAVE to!

Unlike most others, I do not see these last shootings as a "big problem", because I know as population grows so will the so will the overall number of these "problems". More people = more problems. It is very unfortunate that many chose to only look at and hear only one figure - 'X' deaths per year.

Speaking of: what is the annual percentage of school shooting? (The figure that truly matters!)
population [divided by] school shootings

I highly doubt the percentage (per capita) has gone up, at all.

One thing is for sure: we'd all be better off with out weapons, but I know that will not happen (too much machismo now a days, from both males and females), because we really have not evolved. We only think we have (evolved) because we have made some technological advancements - technology has evolved, yet we regress, further each day.

Prime example: people are always gawking in each other’s backyard even though their own is a freakin' mess.
10-03-2006, 02:38 PM
marcjacob

Im not going to argue my point further, i knew this would be a thread that most americans would disagree strongly with. All i will say is that the "guns dont kill people" argument doesnt wash. The kids in that school wernt killed by a gun walking in on its own. Guns need people to kill other people. There primary purpose is to kill either animals or people. No gun every killed someone alone, its people that kill, the guns are tools. On that basis Iraq should have been allowed nukes, after all, "nuclear weapons dont kill people, the person who presses the button does".
10-03-2006, 02:43 PM
chadknowslaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcjacob

Im not going to argue my point further, i knew this would be a thread that most americans would disagree strongly with. All i will say is that the "guns dont kill people" argument doesnt wash. The kids in that school wernt killed by a gun walking in on its own. Guns need people to kill other people. There primary purpose is to kill either animals or people. No gun every killed someone alone, its people that kill, the guns are tools. On that basis Iraq should have been allowed nukes, after all, "nuclear weapons dont kill people, the person who presses the button does".

Actually, to be consistent, you would have to argue against ALL nuclear weapons if you use the Iraq/nuclear weapon comparison to people/gun ownership
10-03-2006, 02:45 PM
marcjacob

100% agreed, i would like to see the world get rid of all nuclear weapons, the problem is until we all trust each other to do it at the same time, no government will. What happened at the end of ww2 must never happen again. The only way to ensure that is to destroy every last nuclear bomb.
10-03-2006, 02:55 PM
chadknowslaw

I am not afraid of someone like Iraq or Iran having nuclear weapons --plural. A government that understands it can be completely obliterated in retaliation will not use them. If Iran used a weapon, millions of Iranians would be incinerated in the retaliation. An Iran or Iraq with 10 nuclear weapons does not scare me -- it is the thought of the nutcase group with ONE that scares me. The group that has ONE and is not concerned with retaliation is a group that would use it. And that is more scary than the thought of a conservative theoracracy.
10-03-2006, 04:34 PM
Paco

Time to ban the organized religions, like Catholicism & Christianity and Islam & Muslim --- they are all the biggest & loudest noisemakers around … going off every few seconds, killing hundreds and thousands of people, everyday! All in the name of “god”. Cool, maybe well add the proverbial unicorn (god) to the list of banned items!
Heck, what am I say … that is where I’d start!

Ostrich syndrome is what I call that --- bury the head (cover eyes), because what you can’t see can’t hurt.
WRONG!

As with drugs, "banning" firearms is not the rational move, at all - one is merely throwing the problem in to a pit (hiding from it), in hopes that the easily impressionable ones will simply walk on by. BUT, they do not.
All the while strong capable minds suffer. (What a nice forced equality society is creating!)

It does not help that people, in general, are very cruel, very lazy and filled to the rim with jealousy, especially on this side of the pond! Mainstream promotes "living large" more and more, so crime goes up!

People hump like rabbits and spit out lil'uns (population grows) so here comes more crime.
10-03-2006, 06:36 PM
desslock

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcjacob

I know this wont be popular, but these are my thoughts on the School Shootings that once again are happening in the States.

This happened once in the UK, in Dunblane. It shocked the nation and within a year handguns where banned in the UK.

What will it take before America bans gun ownership? It seems to be a right of all Americans to have a gun.

I fully agree with the American idea that you can kill an intruder in your own home if you feel you need too, we in the UK have too tight laws on that.

Just because you pass a law about something, it doesn't "go away."

(Porn allegedly harms women, right? Let's enact a ban for the public good!)

And gun control laws are what they say on paper, but in practive not necessesarily effective. For example, Quebec has comparatively very stringent gun control laws compared to the other Canadian provinces, but several weeks ago there was yet another college campus shooting in Montreal. (and it wasn't the first)

The concept about gun rights stems from personal responsibility, an attitude which clashes with the worldview that rights are derived from the government, and given or taken away as priviledges.

Also - gun control laws are exactly like marajuana laws - just because you pass a law, the thing you have deemed objectionable won't go away. It moves into the black market. Plus, marajuana and guns by themseves are not bad things, just when people misuse them.

I don't own a gun, but naturally I think people should have a right to own them. Just like I don't have sex with women, but I think heterosexuals have a right to privacy in their bedroom.

Steve

PS: As a clarification - if cartain states want to enact gun control laws, I don't have a problem with that. Life in Alaska is quite different from the Bronx. Federalism is the most elegant way to handle gun politics in a country as large and diverse like the US. That is a big difference betwen the US and countries like the UK. On the other hand, federal gun laws --- like most federal criminal laws, including federal drug laws.... are heavyhanded and at the end of the day probably cost much more then they benefit.....
10-03-2006, 06:55 PM
marcjacob

Quote:

Originally Posted by desslock

(Porn allegedly harms women, right? Let's enact a ban for the public good!)

The difference there is that porn doesnt really harm women. Guns do kill people and i dont see that can be untrue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by desslock

On the other hand, federal gun laws --- like most federal criminal laws, including federal drug laws.... are heavyhanded and at the end of the day probably cost much more then they benefit.....

I guess thats what im asking, at what point does it become financially viable to rid society of household guns. How many kids = worth the cost of enforcement. whats the formula.

I agree 100% that a ban wont make it go away, it will reduce it as nuts wont have such simple access to guns.

I know Americans love guns, i guess this is a cultural difference between americans and europeans. I just truly cant understand why after all these school shootings, people still value their "right" to own a gun over the life of a kid.

I have to say i thought id get way more stick over posting this, its actually been an interesting thread to read from a non american point of view. Perhaps i just dont understand the american culture the way i thought i did. I would be interested to hear why guns are so important to americans though.
10-03-2006, 06:57 PM
marcjacob

another question, these armish people, are there many of these types of communities in the states? my parents would love that way of life.
10-03-2006, 07:14 PM
desslock

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcjacob

The difference there is that porn doesnt really harm women. Guns do kill people and i dont see that can be untrue.

Well that's *your* comfortable opinion. Try not falling into this easy trap. (Why do people have to make politics a "he said/ she said"? )

Consider this: what if it could be directly proven that porn leads to abuse and harm of women. What then? According to you, I guess the government is perfectly justified in banning porn.

Should freedom of speech be snipped because some people get harmed by it? Or is freedom and personal rights more important? Just because some people kill others with guns, why does everyone in society have to lose their freedoms?

Regarding: "I know Americans love guns, i guess this is a cultural difference between americans and europeans. "

You are mischaracterizing things when you opine "if Americans love guns." That's a backhanded comment to be sure! Characterizing all Americans like Gollum sitting in the dark cave, coveting his "precious" gun.

What we love are our freedoms.

Steve

PS: As mentioned before, the US has background checks, waiting periods, laws prohibiting convcted felons from owning firearms. You can reasonably place some controls on it. But to ban guns would be tantamount to the 1930s Prohibition mistake of banning alcohol, which also added significantly to the nation's violent crime and effectively made everyone sipping some gin a criminal.
10-03-2006, 07:19 PM
marcjacob

If the government found that the primary purpose of porn was to end life, then yes, i would support and call for a ban.

An as for how im "mischaracterizing" amercans, your words not mine. i never said any of that.
10-03-2006, 07:34 PM
desslock

Abortion (arguably) ends life. Do you think abortions should be banned?

I do not, because i think the *rights* of women to do what they personally decide trumps the role of the state.

Here is another example - rights are derived from the individual people, not established or taken away by the state. And wishing guns away by decree like Houdini waving his magic wand will not make them dissapear, nor violent crime.

Cheers!

Steve
10-03-2006, 07:36 PM
marcjacob

your getting desperate now. im not going to through every possible issue with you.
10-03-2006, 09:29 PM
Paco

I beg to differ: a gun's primary purpose is not to end life, rather it is to do the bidding of that which wields it. Also, the operation manual does not state one should point it at vital organs and such. THAT action is the sole choice of the person controlling the gun, bad shot/aim or not.
Of course, that excludes those that receive their "instructions" from the gun itself.
..go on, pop a cap in him, or are you too afraid..
:uhoh: who said that? Is that YOU, Mr.Gun?

A guns primary purpose it to protect (civil servants etc). But, as with many inventions, people will always abuse what's available to them.

I believe the best way to lower gun crimes is to give the kids something better to do, aside from fuckin' bangin'!

And make the dumb ass icons of today (musicians; athletes & movie stars) very responsible for their poor-ass examples! For those that argue they are too meek to do time for their crime, I propose they cough up a very large % of their annual earnings (similar to speeding tickets in that E.European country).
I'd start @ 25%.

Th@ idiot Mel Gibson's Finest ( <-- that's a booze, BTW) pays double!
10-04-2006, 12:28 AM
desslock

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcjacob

your getting desperate now. im not going to through every possible issue with you.

Well just understand I live in Texas.

In this state, if your cell phone rings in a movie theatre, the ushers or staff will expunge it from your fingers, pull out a sawed off shotgun, and blast it squarely with a bullet in the aisles. No questions asked.

Sharpshooter ushers can take out the disruptive phones from a far distance, right out of your hands while speaking on it. And all in a darkened auditorium.

Steve :smoke:
10-04-2006, 06:11 AM
Matt 26z

http://www.nrawinningteam.com/bios02...olddead-fp.jpg
"From my cold, dead hands!"

Marc, what do the gun crime numbers in the UK look like today as compared to before the guns were made illegal?
10-04-2006, 09:34 AM
Paco

Quote:

Originally Posted by desslock

... if your cell phone rings in a movie theatre, the ushers or staff will expunge it from your fingers, pull out a sawed off shotgun, and blast it squarely with a bullet in the aisles.

Excellent! I truly do H8 meatheads that yak on the phone while in a theatre, restaurant, or shopping. Their ever so wanting feeling for others to see how "busy" and "important" is oh so contemptible!

But why take it out on the phone? Remember, it is the tool (person) using the tool (phone) that should be shot!
10-05-2006, 11:13 AM
jeffmaleflixxx

Homer Simpson said it best: "Lisa, if I didn't have this gun, the king of England could walk right in here and start pushing you around."
10-05-2006, 02:11 PM
Paco

What will it take for American to give up guns?

Oh, I know! If EVERYBODY was throating a disco biscuit we'd all be too busy, rubbin' and huggin', for guns!

There is a reason it is tagged the love drug.