Gay forums/events?

We've been organizing islandgathering(.com) for 6 years now.
Overtime we've reached quite a few 'gay' webmasters, some have become regular attendees.

A few 'gay' attendees talked to us about the 'why not a gay version of IG?'.

My opinion is that I don't understand why the gay community would want to be excluded from the straight community. Being European I probably have less 'gay fear' so looking for some feedback here.

Our reviews on our event are raving, simply a strong event to get business done. Should we work harder to get maybe another 10-20 'top' gay webmasters into the event or split off the gay community into it's own event?

Some reviews 2006:
gfy(.com)/showthread.php?t=667315[/url]

-F.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

Our reviews on our event are raving, simply a strong event to get business done.

---

You will actually notice that all of the shows have a lot of rave reviews, whether they suck or not, the problem with rave reviews is that people post on the boards to impress.

Personally i dont see why we need to have other 'gay' events, we already have a successfull gay show put on by CCBill, offering more and more shows is going to be like what has happened with webmaster forums over the years, they all start competing with each other for the same small group of webmasters that dont post on the larger boards, making each of these 'new' boards more and more worthless to others.

The same is true for the shows, 5-8 years ago there was perhaps a show every 3-4 months, now there is a show every 3-4 weeks and everyone is 'showed' out, after all, there are only so many times you can see the same reps, trying to sell the same shit, at the same show, with the same sales talk.

Companies need to start realizing that we're at a point now in the industry where we're working with a minute amount of webmasters that arent clued up on what shows to attend, what boards to post on, what programs to use, etc. The pie can only be sliced up so many times before everyone starts fighting over the remaining peice.

Ask yourself, with 2 companies already wanting to cater to the gay market, CCBill and GayVN, two companies that are already well established in that market place, what makes you think you can mirror their successes, based on the fact that until this thread, ive never even seen mention of the Island Gathering on ANY of the gay marketing forums?

Regards,

Lee

Lee,

Some good comments.
Some remarks:
The straight business is about 8* the size of the gay market.
As a direct result of this straight oriented companies tend to have more staff/sales reps.
We never targeted to this group of people: ceo's and owners is what we're looking for.
Problem with events with too many people results in what you mentioned yourself: too much sales crap.
Cut the sales crap and now you have an owner talking to an owner. No way to back out from a deal here. I've been in too many situations myself where you come back from a show with '5 deals' but end of day they fall apart because sales rep doesn't follow up or doesn't get permission to carry through the deal.

Klixxx has been marketing to and with gay communities for a few years. I believe we where one of the first magazines to cross over from straight to gay which brings me back to one of my questions in my first post: why so little cross over in general?

->

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

why so little cross over in general?

---

As i said, if you dont know much about the gay side of the industry, if you did do a 'gay' Island Gathering it would probably fail.

For the record, there's a heap of cross-over from the straight side of the industry to the gay market, many sponsors over the past few years have launched versions of their programs specifically catering to gay marketers, XXXCash, TopBucks, AEBN, SilverCash, SICCash, the list goes on.

The cross-over is there, maybe you just havent noticed it as you were to busy looking for 'CEOs and owners' to spend their money?

Regards,

Lee

The problem with another gay-only show is that the gay market is small, so we end up seeing the same people over and over again.

We already have the ccbill Gay Phoenix Forum, and now we have the epoch/AVN crowd announcing that they're holding another gay conference during the same month (October). As you can see by the numbers in this poll http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...highlight=show most webmasters here don't want another show, at least not in the same month.

Here's the problem as I see it. I'm an independent webmaster. I can't afford to fork out $3K to go to a show. And if I were to spend that kind of money, I want to make sure I'm going to the best one there is. So, if there are three gay shows and I'm confused about which one is going to be best for me, I'll probably just opt to go to none. I can't take the chance that I'm going to blow $3k on the wrong show.

What I'd prefer to see happen is for the big companies and sponsors of these shows to come together and help independent webmasters get to the shows. After all, wouldn't Condom Cash, for example, be more interested in talking to me than another program. Sure, there are deals to be made between programs, but don't you all want access to the independents who push traffic. Rather than spending thousands of dollars on a booth than doesn't get a lot of foot traffic, or thousands on stickers all over the hotel lobby floor screaming "Pussy Cash," or free limo service from the airport when free hotel shuttle already exists, it might be more effective if these big companies offered independent webmasters a monetary grant to help offset the costs.

If I didn't have to pay to get into the conference and if someone were to give me a grant of $500 or more to help offset my costs, there's a greater chance I good attend the show. And I'm sure a lot of other webmasters are in the same boat.

In order to ensure the sponsors feel that they're getting their money's worth out of it, the conference could set up an event somewhat like those 10-minute date parties. All the sponsors sit at individual tables, and all the grant recipients rotate from sponsor to sponsor, giving each one 10 minutes to pitch their product and talk one-on-one with the webmaster. To avoid abuse, you only get your $500 grant when the event is over and you can present a sheet that each sponsor has signed. Just a thought.

Lee's right, we don't need more shows, we need better shows. If you want to expose yourself and your group to the gay market, why not team up with ccbill's Gay Phoenix Forum and help make that show better.

I'm just a little guy, I don't necessarily need to talk to a CEO. And in fact, I've had more than one CEO screw me up the ass without lube or a condom, and I didn't even get to cum, so I'm not so sure your CEO argument holds much water with me. Give me access to people who can teach me how to push more traffic, build better galleries, and sell more memberships. That's what I need.

Michael

Lee,

No offense but I find the way you act and react on serious posts quite a joke.

topbucks, silvercash and other straight companies adding a few gay sites isn't a cross over. It's commercializing and tapping into a gay market.
Pretty much same happened 8 years ago with the 'fetish' market.
Huge difference between the real fetish sites and the commercial festish sites that came up after that.
it's pretty much the same as a 100% gay webmaster launching a 'teen pussy' program. Guaranteed his retention will be below average.

And for the record: I wasn't too busy with finding ceo's. I run a 150 staff company so I happen to know the frustrations of going to events and getting nothing done. This was also the reason I started the event to start with, same as we started klixxx that way and many other ventures.

What you could learn from people that run mainstream sites with millions of dollars in revenue is how to maximize this revenue and traffic. When I look at any of your sites I see at least 5 small procedures that are not in use on your sites but are in use by pretty much any straight operator. Probably would add 10-15% revenue on the fly, but I guess 10-15% doesn't mean all that much to you?

For the record: I posted here to have a constructive discussion, not to be bashed.

Michael:
Thanks for a long reply.

Some remarks:
In any business you have different layers of providers. You describe yourself as an 'independent webmaster'.
During IG we always have 10-20 people that are 100% comped by either us or a sponsor or I see a personal value in this person. The way we look at this is very simple: if I know you have X amount of traffic or X amount of other business and by inviting you we might end up doing $20k/yr in business it does pay off.
Very simple return on investment formula.

In your case: if your traffic volume would be big enough and this is known in the market changes are you would get an invite.
I agree with you that forking out a minimum of $3k doesn't make any sense to most people. To be educated on traffic etc. you don't need to fly to an island, you better stay home on go on the boards or come together with 3-4 other guys and create your own learning weekend (but invite at least one straight site webmaster;-) )
Once you grow your business and end up with e.g. 5-10 staff members your needs change. All of a sudden you don't have time anymore to look around and check what the competition is doing but you're busy managing your staff. Those people are the typical guys (and girls) we target.

In the old days CE(cash) brought together tons of mid size and smaller webmasters with almost monthly small events in cities around the US which seem to be what's missing these days.

I like your idea on the 10 minute sessions. I believe phoenix form had a 'passporte' to collect stamps. Not sure if there was any comp after finishing that.

I can't agree more with you on the booth space: 100% blowing money to show off with a big booth. End of day this turns into branding and return on investment is hard to measure. On top of that the traffic passing by has no idea who to talk to: the models or the people working the booth?

Grant:
Good idea. ;-)

F.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

topbucks, silvercash and other straight companies adding a few gay sites isn't a cross over. It's commercializing and tapping into a gay market.

---

Im not talking about their paysites, im talking about their gay specific program options, again, if you had any knowledge of the gay industry as you claim to have you would know this.

Quote:

---

Pretty much same happened 8 years ago with the 'fetish' market.
Huge difference between the real fetish sites and the commercial festish sites that came up after that.

---

No it didnt, i dont recall ANY program launching fetish specific front-ends to market to the specific fetish webmaster community, again, paysites have nothing to do with what we're talking about, we're talking about webmasters arent we?

Quote:

---

it's pretty much the same as a 100% gay webmaster launching a 'teen pussy' program. Guaranteed his retention will be below average.

---

Again with the paysites.

Quote:

---

I wasn't too busy with finding ceo's. I run a 150 staff company so I happen to know the frustrations of going to events and getting nothing done. This was also the reason I started the event to start with, same as we started klixxx that way and many other ventures.

---

Ah sorry, i took your quote to mean you only wanted to do business with ceo's not 'actual' webmasters, thats certainly how it read, my apologies if you didnt mean that.

Quote:

---

For the record: I posted here to have a constructive discussion, not to be bashed.

---

For the record, you arent getting 'bashed' this isnt GFY. I thought up until your post above this was actually a pretty good business discussion.

Quote:

---

In your case: if your traffic volume would be big enough and this is known in the market changes are you would get an invite.

---

So basically, you would only 'comp' someone that can benefit you, based on your opinion on how 'big' they are? That isnt what Michael meant, he meant that rather than focusing your event/s on the large guy, put the emphasis on those affiliates and webmasters that are new to the industry or theones that havent quite 'made it' yet. The ones that simply cant afford to waste thousands upon thousands of dollars going to a show.

Quote:

---

Once you grow your business and end up with e.g. 5-10 staff members your needs change. All of a sudden you don't have time anymore to look around and check what the competition is doing but you're busy managing your staff. Those people are the typical guys (and girls) we target.

---

Thats called being complacent, just because you have staff to manage, that doesnt mean that you can forget about the industry happenings and leave it to your employees, in fact, thats a really snobbish way to think about things imho, any program can lose touch with the industry, its happened several times in the past 8 years, where is CE now? Where is MaxCash now? Their owners became complacent and their programs suffered because of it.

Quote:

---

In the old days CE(cash) brought together tons of mid size and smaller webmasters with almost monthly small events in cities around the US which seem to be what's missing these days.

---

Again there are plenty of small webmaster gatherings in various cities around the US, there is a meeting of gay webmasters in L.A on a regular basis, there are meetings in New York on a regular basis, as i said, without meaning to cause offence, if you had been marketing 'with' gay webmasters, you'd know about these meetings.

Regards,

Lee

I'll say this...

the gay end of the business has come into it's own.

We've blossomed into a big man-eating Venus Fly trap, and we've come to the point where we can do this on our own. Many independent gay webmasters don't bother using the gay cross-over sites and just go with gay-run programs that produce better content and understand the needs of people advertizing to gay customers.

We know that as the straight side gets more and more crowded they're going to try to get us to come back and sit at the kid's table at shows.

We're not biting.

I don't mean to be hard on you, and I get it that the straight companies have no problem with us being gay. (well, for the most part)

But we've out-grown the need to have straight companies helping us out and inviting us to their shows.

:jasun:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

What you could learn from people that run mainstream sites with millions of dollars in revenue is how to maximize this revenue and traffic. When I look at any of your sites I see at least 5 small procedures that are not in use on your sites but are in use by pretty much any straight operator. Probably would add 10-15% revenue on the fly, but I guess 10-15% doesn't mean all that much to you?

---

And this point bothered me as well. A lot of the tactics used on the straight side of the business just aren't of interest to many of us. I personally feel that the straight side of the business has soiled the entire market's reputation with their dirty tactics. Yes it may add another 10-15% to your revenue, but how many people does it piss off? How many people will never buy another porn membership because of these tactics?

Things like:

-Opening multiple pop-ups and exit consoles or opening a new one every time one is closed down. This kind of tactic has killed the usefulness of pop-ups and made them one of the most hated things on the web.

-Offering free porn by e-mail just to scam people's e-mail addresses, and then, selling those e-mail addresses to other spammers.

-Throwing up 10 original content sets of women fucking themselves with Coke bottles and promising the surfer "thousands of pictures." When the surfer gets inside they don't find thousands of pictures of woman using Coke bottles, but they find thousands of pictures of all kinds of other things that they necessarily didn't want.

-Calling content "exclusive" when it isn't.

I could go on, but those are just some of the tactics used on the straight side of the business that burn my ass. So yes, a lot of us on this side of the business don't engage in those tactics -- many do. But I think by and large the gay side of the business is cleaner, a little more ethical. We're more about long-term brand building than the flash and screw the surfer type of site so prevalent on the straight side of the business. Please don't litter this post with examples of gay scumbags. I know they exist and I'm sure there are plenty of them. But I just don't see a lot of the stand-up gay brands engaging in those kinds of tactics.

Maybe we should invite the straight side of the business to our conference to teach them how to maintain a solid brand without pissing off the surfer.

Michael

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee

Im not talking about their paysites, im talking about their gay specific program options, again, if you had any knowledge of the gay industry as you claim to have you would know this.

---

Lee, honestly, your demeanor on this board truly baffles me. We all know you love to listen to yourself talk (or, rather, read your own words on this site), but why must you constantly act like such a know-it-all? Can't you TRY actually being a little more diplomatic when people are posting thoughtful topics and trying to initiate discussions? I mean, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jasun

But we've out-grown the need to have straight companies helping us out and inviting us to their shows.

---

I know what you're saying, Jasun, but the problem with this is that you're looking at it as a gay-and-straight thing, where he is really just looking at it as a business thing.

Personally, I think that the gay and straight sides of this business have a LOT to learn from each other, because there are strenghts and weaknesses on both sides, and I think that a little more interaction between the two would be a lot more cool.

I think anytime you start to segregate businesses, you run the risk of falling into a rut of homogeny. And to perfectly honestly, that's already started to happen in the gay community. We're seeing WAY too many sites of the same nature and a lack of ingenuity in how to run gay businesses. It's become a very safe, very NON-creative zone where nobody is taking serious risks anymore. A lot of the leaders in this business are leaders only because they achieved financial success, not for any particular originality or cleverness in the products they are offering.

I would really like to see this business get shaken up again, so that people were kept on their toes a little more regularly. Because when I look around, I see an awful lot of complacency among gay webmasters, and honestly, I think some of them could use a little more input from outside sources.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

We all know you love to listen to yourself talk (or, rather, read your own words on this site)

---

Says the guy who constantly writes about stuff he doesnt know about whilst posting links to the same articles he writes every chance he gets.

Ken, would anyone here actually know who you were if you didnt write for AVN? Furthermore, does any actually care about the stuff you write?

Regards,

Lee

[QUOTE=XXXWriterDude;181339]I know what you're saying, Jasun, but the problem with this is that you're looking at it as a gay-and-straight thing, where he is really just looking at it as a business thing.

Running a site or a company is a business. The ones that start off with one small site and grow are in this game for the money.

I believe UK statistics are somewhere around the number of 1:8 guys are gay, have gay feelings or would like to see gay porn. This for me was the reason 8 years ago to open gay sites even tho I am straight. It's just a business.

Once people stay in their comfort zone nothing is to be learned anymore.

Michael:
I think most of the issues you address are 1998.
A straight program has to compete hard these days to get the traffic and no way that '10 sets with some content' will retain and thus payouts will suck.
Simple economics these days.

I will give you some perfect example as to what bigger straight programs discuss:
averagedicks(.com). Design is 1998. Fonts are so small that they are almost impossible to read on a 17inch laptop.

Hit members button, try to login 5*.
No 'oops you're not a member yet?' screen. Very clean procedure.
Not a member click here to buy .. click here if you forgot your password.
Guess what? have to find a customersupport link with a big invite to cancel to retrieve a password.

Hit 'instant access'.
Damn .. I have a US credit card but I live in Panama.
Ccbill denies me. Where is your fail-over?
Your 'phone' option only allows to call from within the US.
In 2006 alone 20.000 Americans (with creditcard) move to Panama, small country but those Americans happen to live all over the world and they keep buying porn.

Join page: default to a $ 69.95/90day trial?
Why do you think straight programs run a $ 4.95 trial (with upsell button for full access? )

Every little tweak is worth a few points. This is what you can learn from bigger programs and for the record: many smaller niche players have excellent retention numbers, this is what the big boys started to understand. Smaller niche players play in their own little world but aren't aware of some of the procedures to add % points revenue.

Jasun:
It's a two way street. Many straight programs are afraid for gay (believe it or not). Tons of traffic deals to be done there ...
I know owners of very big programs that will not touch any gay traffic and at their scale they leave at least $500k/mo in revenue on the table. Simply adding a text link 'gay sites' to an exit console would do miracles for small/medium size gay operator.

Only AEBN offers it in a smart way to allow a surfer to browse back and forward between gay and staight movies and in both they offer bi-sex..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee

Says the guy who constantly writes about stuff he doesnt know about whilst posting links to the same articles he writes every chance he gets.

Ken, would anyone here actually know who you were if you didnt write for AVN? Furthermore, does any actually care about the stuff you write?

---

Oh, Lee. Sigh. It's obvious you have absolutely no regard for anyone but yourself. The fact that you constantly stoop to such lows on your site proves this. The fact that you trot out my inexperience every chance you get without even considering my point also proves what an insecure, defensive person you are.

I've learned a LOT about this business from working at AVN and meeting a lot of webmasters. They've taught me a lot. True, I don't run my own site, but you don't have to run a site to know how it works, nor does one have to put their hand in a fire to know that it's going to hurt.

If people--or actually, if YOU--didn't care so much about what I write, then you wouldn't be sending me little IMs every time you launch a new site or have something else you want me to cover in the magazine. If you didn't think anyone was reading our magazine, you wouldn't bother. And if you didn't like the coverage, you wouldn't be asking me to give you some press. Which I've done, time and again, even though you're not an advertiser and trash AVN every single chance you get, because I CARE, and because I WANT to do it. But there you are, the very next day, trashing AVN yet again on the board, making wildly egregious judgments and predictions about stuff that YOU know nothing about. How many times have you said that AVN was desparate and failing as a business? How many times have you predicted the end of our magazine? How many times have you been WRONG?

I've never claimed to be anything other than a writer, nor have I ever referred to myself as some kind of expert and tossed my weight around as if I was better than everyone else. Can you say the same, Lee??? HONESTLY, can you say the same?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee

Says the guy who constantly writes about stuff he doesnt know about whilst posting links to the same articles he writes every chance he gets.

---

P.S. Doesn't everybody post links here to stuff that they are doing? I post links here not to bring attention to myself, but to bring attention to the sites I am writing about, or things that I think are important and/or interesting to those who work in this business. Sure, I post the link to drive traffic back to the AVN site, but there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone does it. That's what this business is about. Hello. But I post the links first and foremost to SHARE.

As far as being the "same articles I write every chance I get," I write what I'm told to write. It's my job, Lee. I'm just doing it the best I can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

I've never claimed to be anything other than a writer, nor have I ever referred to myself as some kind of expert and tossed my weight around as if I was better than everyone else. Can you say the same, Lee??? HONESTLY, can you say the same?

---

Yes i can, absolutely.

I have never claimed to be an expert at anything and i have certainly never claimed to be better than anyone else in the industry.

I have however claimed that others are dumb as rocks, and you cant argue with facts.

Regards,

Lee

Fabianb:

I would certainly consider attending the Island Gathering. Despite some suggestions, do not try to put on a gay specific event. Dzinerbear accurately points out that the end result of such a show would be seeing the same small group repeatedly.

I think if your marketing of the Island Gathering included one or two specific attractions, perhaps a gay sponsor, seminar or party, that would do the trick.
Getting the combination right would probably give the show something unique to offer, which would certainly add desirability. That would also answer the "What's In It For Me" question asked my potential gay attendees.

I think PrideBucks was a sponsor of the last IG. Maybe this would be a good thread over on Unity360.com

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for the feedback.

Glad someone is a bit informed ;-)

->

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee

Yes i can, absolutely.

I have never claimed to be an expert at anything and i have certainly never claimed to be better than anyone else in the industry.

---

You've never come right out and said it, but your words on this site point to the contrary. You have a rather annoying habit of talking down to everyone and trying to put everybody else in their place. And if you don't see that, then you're even more deluded and arrogant than you appear to be.

Quote:

---

I have however claimed that others are dumb as rocks, and you cant argue with facts.

---

Well, Lee, we can't ALL be as perfect and all-knowing as you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

You've never come right out and said it, but your words on this site point to the contrary.

---

They do? Well i can hardly help how you interpret my posts now can i?

Quote:

---

You have a rather annoying habit of talking down to everyone and trying to put everybody else in their place.

---

Like you are trying to do to me right now you mean?

Regards,

Lee

hmmm... because the straight market has no interest in mingling with gay webmasters? yeah, that would be one reason why. people that call our webmasters, content and members fags aren't really interested in understanding how we make money or do business.

not sure if people who run sites like corbinfisher or randyblue are interested in going to your gathering. it'll be interesting to find out. unlike big str8 programs, they really focus on their sites and their business model is more about retention than most bigger straight programs which are all about popup sales one doesn't share with affiliates and upsells.

and sites like corbinfisher, fratmen, and randyblue (which does have a single popup) are training members to trust porn websites with good quality content and exactly what was promised in the tour being offered in the member area. that means we'll have guys who will buy again with confidence later.

most larger straight programs (i've reviewed over 1000 str8 sites) have sites no one would be thrilled to find themselves inside. sure, the straight programs make a lot of money now but as more and more surfers join a couple of those sites, and feel they are being ripped off, ALL of us will make less money in the long run.

and the owners of those big programs are very smug and sure their way is the ONLY way to do business. it doesn't encourage me to want to mingle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

My opinion is that I don't understand why the gay community would want to be excluded from the straight community. Being European I probably have less 'gay fear' so looking for some feedback here.

-F.

---

Well said, basschick, very eloquently indeed.

When I tried to make the same point I was told my criticisms were based in 1998.

Michael

Michael,

It's well known that gay programs generally retain longer. Still some straight programs are able to pay way more and it seems to me that the high payouts per signup only come from gay programs operated by straight operators (topbucks/silvercash etc. etc).

Refering to 12 pops and 10 picture sets is adult in 1998. Point out one big straight program that fits this criteria in 2006/2007?

Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?

I happen to know quite a few numbers of larger operators and your argument is that surfers are unhappy. If this is the case it would result in lower retention/member value per ?
More then ever the big guys are working hard on content, they all realize that content is king. More content = higher conversion = more dollars.

Problem with the straight market is a low barrier of entry. $ 750 for ccbill/epoch, some hosting and some content does the trick. Content is more widely available and pretty much any argument there is factor 8.
8* more straight guys, 8* more content, 8* more surfers, 8* more cash hence 8* more clowns and cowboys.

On your own muscle site you use the word 'free' on the tour. After the real free trial was dropped (years ago) numbers showed that 'free tour' would increase conversion.
Reason being: surfers would get confused.
You don't find this deceptive?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

Michael,

It's well known that gay programs generally retain longer. Still some straight programs are able to pay way more and it seems to me that the high payouts per signup only come from gay programs operated by straight operators (topbucks/silvercash etc. etc).

Refering to 12 pops and 10 picture sets is adult in 1998. Point out one big straight program that fits this criteria in 2006/2007?

Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?

I happen to know quite a few numbers of larger operators and your argument is that surfers are unhappy. If this is the case it would result in lower retention/member value per ?
More then ever the big guys are working hard on content, they all realize that content is king. More content = higher conversion = more dollars.

Problem with the straight market is a low barrier of entry. $ 750 for ccbill/epoch, some hosting and some content does the trick. Content is more widely available and pretty much any argument there is factor 8.
8* more straight guys, 8* more content, 8* more surfers, 8* more cash hence 8* more clowns and cowboys.

On your own muscle site you use the word 'free' on the tour. After the real free trial was dropped (years ago) numbers showed that 'free tour' would increase conversion.
Reason being: surfers would get confused.
You don't find this deceptive?

---

Forgive me for talking down to you (as Ken puts it) but if you dont want the advice you are being given, why even bothering asking our opinions in the first place?

You've been given A LOT of good reasons why you shouldnt do a gay only Island Gathering in addition to a lot of other good advice in this thread based on our experiences, yet so far, everyone that has tried to help you has been met with negativity.

Perhaps thats another reason why you shouldnt do a gay only Island Gathering, the people that would have been your best asset in promoting the event you have now managed to turn against you.

Regards,

Lee

Lee,

Pretty much the only real good reason so far has been:
-we have our island, you have yours.
-we don't need straight guys to tell us how to run our biz.

Almost any other argument I've seen so far is more about staying in the own circle then anything else.

Besides the bulk of the negative narrow minded replies I see a few open minded replies which are really thought out.
Once the thread dies out I will for use make a nice list and analyze.
Once studied I probably will come to the conclusion to invite 10-20 guys on our expense to the event and experience it and built the feedback that way.

My reactions aren't negative, just countering some arguments that don't make sense to me. Some replies pretty much say 'straight programs fuck the surfer' but on the other hand you see similar tactics on their own gay sites. Maybe he has a good reason for using this tactic,, hence the reply button.

I can't see why I make enemies here. I am having an open discussion.
15 people are allowed to have 15 different opinions?

->F

i do not use the word free on my tour.

and most large programs' sites suck badly. most don't make their own content - they pay others to shoot it and it mostly looks like it was done in a rush on a budget, and many sites that use the same shooters actually end up with the same models and the same locations. two of our largest programs stream their content at 300k or under and don't update most of their sites. 2 more really large programs are 100% plugin for their non reality sites. a bunch of programs also shoot around 12 episodes and then never update their sites. these things are the norm.

of the large programs, topbucks reality sites are among the very few that update and even a lot of them update only every two weeks, are mostly upsells and plugins - and their standard sites are all plugins.

as i said, i've reviewed over 1000 straight sites, and more of those sites are big programs' sites.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

Refering to 12 pops and 10 picture sets is adult in 1998. Point out one big straight program that fits this criteria in 2006/2007?

---

Topbucks, Bubble Butts Galore just popped a pop under when I visited the site, and when I closed the pop-under, I got three more before the chain was exhausted. And TopBucks certainly isn't the only one, I just don't have the time to dig around, but I'm guaranteeing you that if I surfed straight porn for one hour, I could bring you a whole list of offenders.

And why do you think gay sites retain better? We generally don't jerk surfers around and we expend more energy creating quality content. If you look at Gay Blowjob Auditions, which is run by Platinum Bucks, the content you see in the preview area is pretty much what you get. The rest of their member's area is plugins. When I reviewed the site I couldn't find anywhere that they ever update the site. This is an example of what I was talking about with big straight programs mismanaging their sites. Imagine a surfer's reaction if this is the first "gay" porn site they have ever joined. Every other real gay site on the Net now has to overcome this surfer's hesitancy -- he doesn't want to get ripped off again. (Oh and btw, Platinum Bucks also popped a pop-under when I visited their Gay Blowjob Auditions. Their Hardcore Sweethearts, a straight site, also popped a pop under. Granted it wasn't a chain.)

"Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?"

They're only interested in finding out why our sites retain so well, but when we try and tell them, they laugh and go on their merry way doing what they always do because afterall they're rolling in millions. And all they need to do to increase sales is shoot 8 sets with chicks fucking miniature porcelain dwarfs and say, "Thousands of pics inside" and whoosh! away they go, thousands more surfers duped into thinking they're getting thousands of pics of chicks fucking porcelain dwarfs.

As far as I can see the straight model runs like this: throw up three new sites a week, take the initial hit, don't update them very much at all, let them run their course, and then, retire them or leave them up to capture all the new traffic that hasn't been duped yet. When the rebilling and new sales drop off enough, kill them completely.

btw fabian, do you work for Klixxx?

Michael

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee

Like you are trying to do to me right now you mean?
Lee

---

What I'm trying to get you to be a little more welcoming to people who come to your board, Lee. Instead of talking down to everyone and constantly telling them what idiots you think they are, why not actually embrace that they come onto your site and take part in a community you helped to build?

Instead, you're like that big bully on the playground who, when he gets called out for acting like an imbecile, tries to humiliate and intimidate people into silence. The fact that you actually had the nerve to type something like "Does anyone even care about what you write, Ken?"--especially when you exploit my position at AVN every chance you get--only proves how equally insecure AND full of yourself you really are. That's something a 5-year-old would do when they know they're losing.

You have the opportunity with this site--which I totally commend you for creating--to help nurture an industry that looks to you to bring together an increasingly segregated business in one common place, but instead you use it as a vehicle to propagate negativity and self-righteousness, when that's the LAST thing this industry needs.

True, my posts here today may not be the best means to promoting togetherness and unity, but today I just wasn't in the mood to listen to you tell yet another webmaster how stupid you think he is. It's gotten REALLY old, and you've already lost quite a few board participants for that very reason.

Anyway, I said my peace. I have no desire to prove I have the bigger dick. I just wish you would think twice before you would turn your poison pen on people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

but today I just wasn't in the mood to listen to you tell yet another webmaster how stupid you think he is.

---

Ken..

It isnt just me that is saying it though, re-read through this entire thread, so far everyone that has offered Fabian some help has been met with negativity, like we dont know what we're doing.

I just find it strange that we arent the ones going to the straight niche webmasters asking for their help, to improve our ratios or profit margins, in fact, i dont think ive ever seen that happen, instead, its always those in the straight niche coming to us looking for help and advice, and when they get it, it isnt what they want to hear so we must be the 'stupid' ones.

There is a reason so many in the gay marketplace dont have a lot of respect for those working in the straight niche, its because of threads just like this one, ones where we give people the advice they ask for, and they throw it back in our faces like we dont know what we're talking about.

We arent the ones suffering for new surfer joins to our sites, we arent the ones constantly looking to expand in the straight niche, we arent the ones running around calling everyone breeders or other derogatory terms that fit, in fact, we're the ones building loyalty with our consumers, we're the ones that are offering help and advice to those seeking it, we're the ones these straight companies are trying to market to, by not listening to the advice we give them (based on our vast experience in this marketplace) i'm sure even you will agree, THATS STUPID.

Regards,

Lee

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fabianb

Klixxx has been marketing to and with gay communities for a few years. I believe we where one of the first magazines to cross over from straight to gay which brings me back to one of my questions in my first post: why so little cross over in general?

---

Ah yes, I see that you do.

Okay, well let me give you some advice.

Last year or maybe earlier this year, I wrote an article for Klixxx "Gay is Not a Niche" and then I wrote a second article for Klixxx about the hairy man and gay bear niche. Working with Rainey, I was going to develop a series of articles for your magazine -- each month I'd cover a different niche in the gay market. I may have written a third article (second in that series) but I can't remember. The plan was to write a whole year's worth of articles for you.

However, after writing two articles for Klixxx I hadn't heard from any one at your magazine. Rainey thanked me for writing them, and Kathy may have, but I'm not sure about that. But it would have be nice if I had heard from the publisher or the editor. A thank-you note or "great article we really appreciate it," an e-mail, a private message, a phone call, a Klixxx pen in the mail would have been nice. But I heard nothing.

Had any of the higher-ups at Klixxx bother to acknowledge my effort, I would have continued writing for you. As you didn't I figured, "Why am I taking time away from my own projects for this." No one seemed to notice.

I was also moderating Unity 360 and doing a lot of writing in an SEO forum there, but again, no one at Klixxx, with the exception of Kathy ever bothered to say anything. Now, I don't need a pat on the head just for the sake of it, but it is nice, and it's also nice to get feedback about what I'm doing right and wrong, and how I could improve. With work and stress piling up on my end (I was working full-time plus running my own empire), I just walked away from it all. I don't need to continue busting my ass for people who can't be bother to acknowledge me, my work, or my time commitment.

It's too bad because I enjoyed the writing; I used to be a gay journalist so it was good to be writing again. But feeling good doesn't put food on the table.

So before you run off and create a new gay show, you might want to re-examine how your company deals with the people that already help them -- or did. If mine is typical of the Klixxx experience, then I can't imagine it's going to be satisfying for a lot people.

Michael

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lee

There is a reason so many in the gay marketplace dont have a lot of respect for those working in the straight niche, its because of threads just like this one, ones where we give people the advice they ask for, and they throw it back in our faces like we dont know what we're talking about.

---

Well, perhaps you should examine the manner in which you give advice, Lee. Tone is everything.

Quote:

---

We arent the ones suffering for new surfer joins to our sites, we arent the ones constantly looking to expand in the straight niche, we arent the ones running around calling everyone breeders or other derogatory terms that fit, in fact, we're the ones building loyalty with our consumers, we're the ones that are offering help and advice to those seeking it, we're the ones these straight companies are trying to market to, by not listening to the advice we give them (based on our vast experience in this marketplace) i'm sure even you will agree, THATS STUPID.

---

Well, putting the tired "gay victim" routine aside for a moment, I see your point, but not ALL the straight webmasters are like that, and the ones who actively reach out to the gay webmasters shouldn't be judged and attacked because of the faults and failings of others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

the ones who actively reach out to the gay webmasters shouldn't be judged and attacked because of the faults and failings of others.

---

Ken,

Fabian hasnt been judged based on the actions of others, he was judged based on his actions, basically turning around to everyone that offered him advice and telling them 'you are wrong'.

Regards,

Lee

lee,

If you read my previous answer you can read what I say:
I counter an argument based on what I know and wait for someone to hit the reply button.

Michael offered a good reply and have to agree he is correct in what he writes. ('new' gay site example).

Mainstream straight guys have to compete harder for their traffic and thus have to be more agressive. Those tactics result in pops etc.
Below the layer of straight programs promoting themself on gfy and other boards you will find a large layer of niche players that run programs as clean as described here. Main reason is that they don't have to use the tricks since they don't compete for the mass traffic.
A good example is: alsscans.com, very clean. Talk to 25 straight guys and 15 will know the site. For the longest time they didn't even offer recurring memberships.
If I was the owner of alsscans.com I probably would try to make a deal with pridebucks (or other gay operator) to launch absscans.com and work the traffic and share the knowledge.
This is what I call 'cross over'.

Michael:
I don't run day-to-day operations klixxx but based on your remarks here I guess I should ;-)
I will pm you on this issue. I don't know who made the deal with you etc.

Patti and Michael made some good points earlier in this thread that actually are a big part of why we select what shows to attend and what we do when there.

Quite frankly, the utility of these "larger" shows diminishes for us more and more every year.

How it usually plays out is I go to a show, meet a lot of these straight program staffers/managers/owners, and they hit me up for traffic trades, exit console trades, banner trades, such and such and such.

Well... we don't do any of that. We don't do the inter-paysite traffic trading. We don't have consoles. We don't have other sites' banners on ours.

And it always reminds me of just how different our model is to that of so many others when I have - and try to find a way out of - these conversations. When I tell people we don't do any of the above, they look at me with stunned faces and can't imagine just how it is we manage to scrape by hehe.

As Patti and Michael have mentioned before, we're about appealing to the consumer and generating traffic and interest that way. Not generating traffic and interest by working out deals with a ton of other webmasters to send us their traffic.

Truthfully, at the gay-oriented shows there are just far more people who have businesses and outlooks similar to ours and with whom we could actually get a lot done with. They can actually offer us qualified traffic, as opposed to just random link trades and the like. They're more often in line with the consumer-appeal, retention model. As opposed to just the console trade, any-and-all-traffic-from-wherever model.