Epoch.... still nothing...

Epoch still hasn't offered any information/comments/explanation about the GayVN retreat, the scheduling of it, and the exclusion of CCBill from it... so I'm just reminding people that the company that is aggressively courting our business has so far completely avoided ANY mention of this...

For those of you who haven't read the related thread, all publicly available information indicates that AVN, Epoch, and Cybersocket got together and planned an event directly against the already-scheduled Gay Phoenix Forum, a well received, loved, and much-anticipated event.

Those in the sponsoring group that have spoken have alluded to their being other reasons, but nobody is offering up any details, so based on currently available public information, all we have to go on is appearances that indicate these companies are not interested in industrywide cooperation and unity.

I (and many others) would like to make sure that webmasters have this information available to them when making decisions about which companies are most supportive of the community as a whole, and interested in unity and cooperation.

I don't speak for anyone but myself, but I am interested in all-inclusive events in which all companies, webmasters, billers, and others related to the industry are invited to participate and support. Only in this way can our small but successful segment of the industry continue to grow and prosper.

I encourage others interested to keep bumping this thread, commenting, and reading and bumping the related ones:

http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=22524
http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=22682

until satisfactory answers or other resolution are provided to the community.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

Epoch still hasn't offered any information/comments/explanation about the GayVN retreat, the scheduling of it, and the exclusion of CCBill from it... so I'm just reminding people that the company that is aggressively courting our business has so far completely avoided ANY mention of this...

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Thank you gaybucks_chip for keeping this issue active at GWW.

I remain angry.

Let us review some of the facts as I understand them as a reader of GWW. If anyone disputes my comments, I will search and give you a link.

It seems Epoch decided to strongly seek Gay Webmaster contracts. They hired Patrick away from CCCILL and Raney from PrideBucks. Seems to me a simple plan to earn major bucks from the Gay webmasters.

FACT:

Suddenly a show was scheduled weeks away from a planned show.

CCBILL was the host of the planned SECOND YEAR EVENT and at the past CCBILL show... all were invited, including competition Epoch.


FACT:

The new show has a non-compete clause. So the visitors don't see the true variations of GAY (including CCBILL as being denied).

WHY SHOULD THERE BE A GAY SHOW
that opens doors to some special companies,
SLAMMING IT SHUT FOR OTHERS?

Treating people like crap is NOT cool. What's even less cool is how passive too many seem to be over it.

Bump....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPACE GLIDER

Treating people like crap is NOT cool. What's even less cool is how passive too many seem to be over it.

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The reason for this, from what i found out at the show last week, is that a lot of people still have a perception of the group of companies involved in this whole mess that they are someone to be feared, that this group of companies has some kind of 'power' in the industry, specifically on the gay side of things and frankly, that just isnt the case at all....

The more people that begin to realize this, the better off we'll all be on the gay side of things.

Regards,

Lee

No individual or organization in this industry has power, except to the extent that others YIELD that power. It's very much like the Wizard of Oz here... the Great and Powerful Oz is really a dude behind a curtain, and everything else is a facade.

Particularly in the online adult industry, the distributed nature of the Net, traffic, billers, etc., make it impossible for power to be concentrated in any meaningful way, regardless what one or more companies might want for others to believe.

The sooner that people wake up and realize this, and act out of what's best instead of perceived fear from a nonexistent power source, the sooner the industry as a whole, and individual businesses within it will thrive.

All I can say is that Epoch's move smacked of unethical business practice. Not explaining their actions even make it seem more so.

I know if I proccessed with them I would cancel....but since I don't, all I can do it complain here.

I hope that maybe someone will come forward with an explanation that makes sense. But the reason we haven't heard anything is probably because there isn't one.

AVN has been represented here in the forums via one of the writers.

EPOCH...

SHAME on you, as a company for your silence, as you wanted smaller GAY income, for it reaps to my mind many words and meanings of...

Can't think of a overall polite word to write here.

[QUOTE=wnc;195393]AVN has been represented here in the forums via one of the writers.

EPOCH...

SHAME on you, as a company for your silence /QUOTE]

Especially since at least two Epoch people have been very regular posters here at GWW and one or two other forums where this issue has been brought up...

Chip....

What EXACTLY is it that you want these people to say?

It's pretty clear that everyone was in negotiation over this, and for some reason the negotiations fell apart. Anything anyone says at this point, from either CCbill, Epoch, or AVN is simply going to look like finger pointing or blaming.

You have never been in negotiations and had them fall apart before? And when it happens, what are we supposed to do? The "gentlemanly" thing to do is just shut up, because usually, everyone has a valid point of view, and even if they don't - well, you don't air your private grievances in a public forum! Especially when you usually work together on a daily basis!

As to closing sponsorship to CCbill, c'mon. CCbill was quicker to market with decent affiliate tools, Epoch is trying to catch up -- and as I see it is making a much more dedicated play to our market. Now, I dont know about how you run YOUR company - but ours is having a big event in New York next month. I am not inviting my competitors to it. You know why? Because it would be a STUPID thing to do... and its MY party!

CCbill did NOT have to cancel Gay Phoenix. Its a much more popular show, and had they not cancelled it, many more webmasters would have gone to Phoenix than to LA. CCbill made a CHOICE to cancel thier show. So, could it be they weren't as dedicated to doing Gay Phoenix as we are all assuming here?

I have a suggestion for everyone here who is bitching on this board. Call Frank at Epoch. Call GayVN. Call Sean at CCbill. Because I guarentee this whole issue is being blown WAY out of proportion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shaun

Chip....

What EXACTLY is it that you want these people to say?

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Wellll.... saying *anything* would be a start. Posting here and at GMS while deftly avoiding any comment at all on the controversy in which they are involved is not a wise PR move on Epoch's part.

Quote:

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It's pretty clear that everyone was in negotiation over this, and for some reason the negotiations fell apart. Anything anyone says at this point, from either CCbill, Epoch, or AVN is simply going to look like finger pointing or blaming.

You have never been in negotiations and had them fall apart before? And when it happens, what are we supposed to do?

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When you have a situation that you realize is going to look bad for your company, you "face the music" and address it. If you're really smart about it, you go to all of the parties involved and try to issue a joint statement that addresses all of the potential concerns people might have, and you make yourself available for questions and concerns that your customers have. And you certainly don't lie to the faces of people who ask you straight up at Phoenix Forum about the situation.

Quote:

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As to closing sponsorship to CCbill, c'mon. CCbill was quicker to market with decent affiliate tools, Epoch is trying to catch up -- and as I see it is making a much more dedicated play to our market.

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And you know what? Up until this, they were winning a lot of friends in the gay marketplace.

Had they handled the PR differently, and not allowed themselves to get embroiled in a politics play by another entity in the marketplace, they could have continued to win even more friends.

For example, they had the perfect opportunity to say "We like what CCBill did with Gay Phoenix Forum, and we will continue to support that, but we're also going to launch an additional show in (May-July or something)" Then, if CCBill really didn't want to do GPF, as some have alleged, Epoch would still look great, and they probably could even have gotten away with making theirs an event to which other billers weren't eligible to sponsor.

But instead, they chose to create an event that was directly in competition with an event that was already loved and anticipated, and (depending on whom you believe) either gave CCBill a convenient excuse to cancel, or forced CCBill's hand, realizing their event wouldn't be successful if AVN, Cybersocket and Epoch were all "ganging up" against CCBill.

In other words, it's not a single act, it's the combination of anti-cooperative behaviors that allow people to paint Epoch as a company that doesn't really care about the community as a whole. Now, maybe this is entirely untrue... but we don't know, because Epoch isn't talking.

Quote:

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CCbill did NOT have to cancel Gay Phoenix. Its a much more popular show, and had they not cancelled it, many more webmasters would have gone to Phoenix than to LA. CCbill made a CHOICE to cancel thier show. So, could it be they weren't as dedicated to doing Gay Phoenix as we are all assuming here?

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How can you say it's a much more popular show than one that's never been held? And how can you be confident that "many more webmasters would have gone to Phoenix"? Even if they wanted to go full steam ahead, continuing the show would have forced webmasters (and sponsors) to choose, which would have further splintered the community and resulted in less networking opportunities for all, not to mention taking what could potentially be two good events if spread out and putting them 3 weeks apart. And THAT was 100% the fault of one or more greedy companies looking out for their own interests instead of the community at large. I don't know who is responsible, because no one is talking, except to offer the very disingenuous "Oh, this three-week period of the year just happens to be the only good time to do a show" excuse.

Quote:

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I have a suggestion for everyone here who is bitching on this board. Call Frank at Epoch. Call GayVN. Call Sean at CCbill. Because I guarentee this whole issue is being blown WAY out of proportion.

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As I have said many times, I am more than willing to speak to any of the parties involved, but it's not my role to take the first step. If someone wants to contact me then I will be more than happy to listen with an open mind, and if it turns out (and I can verify) that things are not what they seem, I will happily change my opinion on this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shaun

CCbill did NOT have to cancel Gay Phoenix. Its a much more popular show, and had they not cancelled it, many more webmasters would have gone to Phoenix than to LA. CCbill made a CHOICE to cancel thier show. So, could it be they weren't as dedicated to doing Gay Phoenix as we are all assuming here?

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Shaun...
I just want to clarify - It was a tough decision for us to cancel the Gay Forum, but you are right: it was a business decision and a choice for us. Our goal, whether people believe it or not, is to do what is best for the businesses in our community. And doing this serves our current and future customers in the long-term, as well as our business.

Saying that more attendees would have gone to Phoenix is simply an unfounded assumption, while our facts show that sponsors were concerned that given the choice of two shows close together, because of travel, more people would attend a local LA show, rather than travel to Phoenix. We also made the decision with the thought that the gay web market is not all about the big players, but also the emerging and medium-sized web businesses – so the cost of airfare, hotel, transportation, and new g-strings can be daunting for two similar shows in the matter of weeks.

CCBill, Epoch, AVN, and Cybersocket all bring value to the businesses of the gay adult web market, and we don’t think that it serves ANYONE to deny our community any of these resources at a show.

Now, while being the Host for the Phoenix Forum clearly puts our name in front of the community, I think the difference that you see in our shows is in fairness: sponsors are well taken care of, but if you look at the panels and roundtables, we do not play favorites, and try to do our best to serve the topics and needs of the businesses in attendance.

Do we always get it right? No, but we make the effort.

With that said, you will be seeing a press release soon, announcing the combining of the Gay Phoenix Forum with the Phoenix Forum next spring. We want the gay community to be able to leverage the expertise of both the straight and gay adult web businesses.

hmmmm.

I hope CCBill thinks this through really carefully.

If Gay Phoenix Forum simply becomes a sidecar next to Phoenix Forum, happening at the same time, then it's really no different than what Phoenix Forum has always been... a great show with significant participation from gay webmasters.

And while that's nice, I fear it would end up similar to the highly touted GayVN event at AEE... which was basically a complete flop... or just Phoenix Forum as it's always been

If, on the other hand, they just make Phoenix Forum a couple days longer and make the first two days Gay Phoenix Forum or something, that could work.

This is certainly better than nothing, but I really hope they think this through carefully AND seek the input of gay webmasters before they make their announcement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

FACT:

The new show has a non-compete clause. So the visitors don't see the true variations of GAY (including CCBILL as being denied).

WHY SHOULD THERE BE A GAY SHOW
that opens doors to some special companies,
SLAMMING IT SHUT FOR OTHERS?

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it comes as no surprise to us - this type of "ganging" behavior happens all the time (to us) - its all about money, nothing more...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

This is certainly better than nothing, but I really hope they think this through carefully AND seek the input of gay webmasters before they make their announcement.

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Thats what they are doing ;)

There were extensive discussions this past week in Phoenix from a lot of the gay attendees, myself included and im pretty sure they spent a good chunk of yesterday discussion their options too ;)

Regards,

Lee

actually once the l.a. show had signed all the speakers and sponsors, there's no chance that the gpf would have been able to pull off the quality of shows that people expect. the lawyers, among others, can't take 2 weeks off to do 2 shows. and many of the sponsors can't send their employees to two separate shows because work has to get done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shaun

CCbill did NOT have to cancel Gay Phoenix. Its a much more popular show, and had they not cancelled it, many more webmasters would have gone to Phoenix than to LA. CCbill made a CHOICE to cancel thier show. So, could it be they weren't as dedicated to doing Gay Phoenix as we are all assuming here?

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Not to mention that, while a number of the sponsors could afford to (financially) support two shows, doing so 2 weeks apart would not be feasible for most.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by basschick

actually once the l.a. show had signed all the speakers and sponsors, there's no chance that the gpf would have been able to pull off the quality of shows that people expect. the lawyers, among others, can't take 2 weeks off to do 2 shows. and many of the sponsors can't send their employees to two separate shows because work has to get done.

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Patti,

That is exactly right.

A lot of people seem to be getting blinded by the fact the show was just cancelled, allegedly because of 'date' issues, thats not the only reason why it was cancelled.

Of course cancelling the show was a business decision on CCBills part, a very good one at that too. They realized that not only their business, but also that of the sponsors and attendees would have been adversly affected by the secret deals done by AVN/Epoch/Cybersocket to get the Gay Phoenix Forum cancelled to the detriment of the gay webmaster community.

A lot companies spent a lot of money this past week in sponsorship and parties, only to have it wasted by the actions of a small group of companies who couldnt get their own way and decided to throw a tantrum.... Even though they never showed their faces during the show, other than at their own 'parties'.

Im glad that CCBill decided to cancel the Gay Phoenix Forum instead of continuing to plan for an event that would have been ruined due to the behavior of a group of companies who are only looking out to line their own pockets, at the expense of the greater webmaster community they profess wanting to benefit.

Where was the benefit to the gay webmaster community in Phoenix last week while they were pulling childish tricks to try and make all of the sponsored gay events a failure?

The good news is, CCBill was on top of things, they heard what was happening and instead of getting pulled in to the pettyness, they re-grouped, took the high road and reacted to what was going on to make sure the companies (PrideBucks, DirtyTony, etc) got the best bang for their buck they could, even scheduling another extra event one night paid for out of their own pockets.

Regards,

Lee

Just a bump so that one of the 3 Epoch reps currently reading GWW has a chance to see this thread and provide us with some answers :)

Regards,

Lee