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Is it just me, or does anyone else find the new Luvloot's manluv.com gay personals site just a bit off the mark? They ask guys signing up for profile to categorize themselves as a masculine guy or feminine guy. I find that pretty weird and un-gay. Do we really need to be categorized in this way?
Michael
I find it weird still to be asked if I'm femme or butch ... it's like, I'm just ME ... why do some feel that I have to have yet another "label" ???
Aside from a lot of feminine guys having a skewed view of whether they're masculine or not? :)
Yeah, it's a bit of an odd question. At least some of those guys are honest. LOL.
maybe it's a way of asking "indirectly" are you "top or bottom?"
sincerely ~ ..."top-only" looking for cuddley-bottom that likes to get rimmed & rammed for hours , please submit pic's of bumper!"... :fool:
Yeah, I thought of that, too, but it's just stupid, fueling the stereotype that to be a bottom is less than a man, submissive, feminine ... why not just ask if you're a top or bottom rather than attaching some judgement to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by longboardjim
Michael
and yet one of my best friends is a very effeminate top.
i think asking people if they're masculine or feminine is a rude question myself - and pointless since masculine and feminine vary according to the eyes of the beholder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by longboardjim
agreed! , i think it's rude but it does "cut to the chase" when determing potential sex partners for the evening instead of being surprised later with another top. (interpreted: i am attracted to other masculine men such as myself so too often i am hitting on other tops!)
i have run across "effeminate" tops (needlepoint anyone?) and "masculine" bottoms (field tested and jack-hammered approved!) so it does vary. (interpreted: when bottoms are not masking the "scent" with cologne's and perfumed soaps you can smell a guy who wants to be...)
this also explains why i seem to be more "group-oriented" (interpreted: i'm too much of a gentlemen to ask?)
sincerely ~ ..."all topped up and no one to ram!"... :fool:
You also have people that find feminine guys as a turn off, maybe they see it as just another screening point. If i'm a guy that wants to date a guy that actually acts like one, running across someone who wears makeup and pumps on the weekend might not be the one for me *shrugs*
Still though, people definitely dwell too much on labeling EVERYTHING!
agreed! , too many labels , why can we just leave it as a generic "dominate/submissive" (interpreted: a woman can be dominate)
sincerely ~ ..."me tarzan , you jane!"... :fool:
I actually do think this is what they were trying to do in some kind of 'screening' process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Masters
Regards,
Lee
Not to change the angle of the subject matter but I think it's hilarious when you have these preconceived notions of what a porn model sounds and moves like when all that you have seen is photos and him in action on film. I won't name names but I've met several models and known some that the moment they are off camera and open their mouths, out comes Madonna, Snagglepuss, and Bruce Vilanch all rolled into one. Some are brutal tops on film.
What I am saying is, before we start labeling ourselves again on chat sites more, we need to think about how we are portraying gay men on film. Butch? Femme? Does it really matter?
Hi guys someone just pointed this out to me and I want to clear something up.
We are not trying to label anyone at ManLuv, it's not about a label, it is about helping a guy find exactly what he is looking for easily. Some men prefer a fem guys, some prefer a masculine guys.
If you were to sign up to another site and do a search, man seeking man, but you prefer fem guys over masculine wouldn't your search be made a little easier if things were broken down further?
It's for ease of use, to help the end user find the exact person he is looking for, nothing more.
I have met many of bottoms that were very masculine though. I think it is just another stereotype that some want to try to associate with tops and bottoms.
I do think that it makes since to ask that question on a hookup site though. Some guys do prefer more fem guys and of course some like their guys a bit more masculine. I personally prefer that masculine man. :)
I, too, am annoyed by the gay community's insistence on rigid stereotypes. I think the exclusionary tactics that many gay men practice are often delusional, prompted by insecurity, and just bad form.
I think that if more gay men truly loved themselves and their bodies, they wouldn't place so much importance on things like masculine/feminine, body type and whether or not someone is quote-unquote "athletic" (read: Abercrombie Zombie).
A lot of what we find attractive in other people is a direct reflection of how we feel about ourselves, i.e., men who MUST have a dominant masculine top may be looking to reinforce their own shaky masculinity. Guys who want big muscle men might be looking for the strength that they feel they lack in their own lives. Guys who chase after feminine guys only might be looking to prove how strong they are.
I truly feel that the gay community suffers from a bevy of issues surrounding gender and identity issues, and that if somehow more of us could simply stop trying so hard to fit into rigid labels that we think might make us "normal" or more attractive to other gay men, then we would simply relax and let each other be who we are, and you would see a lot more interaction, copulation and mating between the various types.
I say this as someone who has suffered through all of these issues myself. I could write a book on the confusion, frustration and fear that I was faced with growing up a sissy boy in smalltown, white, Republican Pennsylvania. I had masculinity issues out the wazoo for many many years, and I still struggle with them today, though not at all in any way that interferes with my relationships with other men. The older and more comfortable with myself and my body that I've become, the more relaxed I've become in terms of what I am looking for in a partner--whether permanent or temporary. As soon as I realized that I had these issues, I began to work on them. Sadly, I think too many people realize they have issues and then use them as an excuse for shallow behavior instead of thinking outside the box and actually seeing the beauty in ALL KINDS of people, not just their preferred types.
:)
Regardless of sentiments expressed in my previous post, I understand what you're trying to accomplish with ManLuv, Melissa. It makes perfect sense. Hopefully one day gay men won't place such importance on things like "masculine" and "feminine," but that's not really your problem as a business owner serving the gay market. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mistwist
well sorry guys, but being a very masculine guy myself and being INTO very feminine guys i do appreciate this kind of search... :bow: :bow: :bow:
Ken,Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Did you ever think that perhaps its just YOU that had these issues and that, shock horror, every gay man doesnt hate themselves as you seem to imply whenever you get the chance?
Perhaps it is/was just YOU that is/was a crackpot who had 'issues' to work out and that the rest of us, are actually stable, sane people who dont hate ourselves and in fact, are quite happy with our bodies, lives, relationships and are happy being gay?
Perhaps, the fact you have lowered your standards in what you look for in a partner means that you really arent looking for a relationship, but are in fact looking to just get laid because of the self-loathing issues you still have for yourself being a gay man that nobody you 'were' looking for, thought you measured up to their standards, physically and mentally?
Just a thought, typically, when you are driving down a 1-way street, with all the other vehicles heading towards you, it means that you fucked up, not the drivers in the other vehicles.
Regards,
Lee
LOL! Lee, you're so funny. There you go again trying to invalidate and dismiss other people. It's so entertaining watching you act out your OWN obvious insecurities on here. I'm quite amused by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Actually, no, I have never thought that I was the only one in the world who felt that way, because I know for a fact that MANY gay men suffer from these same issues. It's been written about and studied by psychologists for years, and anyone with a brain knows that there is no such thing as just one person being the only person in the whole world who feels a certain way. I've also talked with MANY of my gay friends and people over the years, certainly enough to know that there are lots of people who share these very same concerns.
The fact that so many gay men make such a stink about whether or not they are masculine obviously points to some kind of insecurity about their masculinity. It's common sense.
And I find it laughable that you would say that I've "lowered my standards" when, in fact, I've simply matured and grown up. Again, I choose to find beauty in a wide array of body types and personalities, not just one rigid type of person. Personally, I think that points to a very mature outlook.
It's always so funny how negatively people react to hearing anything remotely critical of either the gay community or their own behavior. I'm sure you're feeling rather smug and energized now that you've once again personally attacked someone in a public forum, but your typically over-the-top and dismissive--not to mention wildly defensive--reaction to my post only goes to show that I was on to something in the first place. Thanx for supporting my theory. ;)
One thing to keep aware of is that so many "masculine" gay men, and straight men for that matter, seem to think that being an effeminate man is a bad thing. Look at the reaction a lot of you had to the question of being masculine or effeminate. Think about your own personal feelings and the comments made. I've been guilty myself of saying something about a guy who looks manly and then he opens his mouth and a purse falls out. But does that make him less of a man? Is it wrong for a masculine man to do drag? Is it wrong for a femme guy to dress up as butch? We don't like to be labeled by others yet we do a damn good job of it ourselves. And it's not because we are damaged or lacking something in our lives, it's just that we've grown up in a culture that loves shoving people into neat little boxes. The younger people of today are experimenting with gender roles as early as junior high. Us older folk could take a lesson about that and be more accepting.
And Ken, you know I love ya, darlin' but I recall a conversation where you pinched a tiny little bit of your stomach lamenting about how fat you were and how you needed to lose weight. I hope your above post was about conquering your issues and that you can see you have nothing to worry about. Although, I must admit, being a 200 plus full figured guy and having someone with a small frame going on about being overweight did nothing to help my self-esteem. So in talking about the way gay people treat each other, keep in mind that if you think 10 extra pounds is sooooo fat then you obviously think I'm a gargantuan pig. But I won't bow down to that kind of pressure. I have in the past and I decided no more. I go to the gym because I want to feel better and have more energy. I'll always have a stomach, I may lose some weight and gain some muscle but I will always be "fat" by Weho standards. But you know, I have a wonderful boyfriend who rubs my big belly and tells me how sexy I am. And if not him then there are others who look to the person you are rather than the vessel that carries you, so it's about loving yourself before you can love someone else.
I would have to say I'm a little bit of both. It totally depends on the situation though, I tend to surprise a lot of people with my masculinity from time to time. ;)
Baby, thats not your masculinity, thats your cock ;) LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by vs eddie
Regards,
Lee
and yet that VERY effeminate top i talked about thinks he's the epitome of masculinity. so asking doesn't really solve anything, and makes it more likely that people will lie or mislead.
when the people start to talk or show each other photos, they'll figure out if they're attracted without asking a question that feels like a straight person's version of gay male relationships to me.
btw, ken - there are gay men out there that are centered and happy. there are also gay men with tons of issues, but masculine vs feminine was never one of them. everyone doesn't have the same problems or we'd never have drama ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistwist
Sometimes it's not even a matter of lying or misleading, just self-perception. I remember the first time I saw myself on video as a young adult just being myself. I had thought I was this very masculine guy and seeing my mannerisms and actions, and hearing my voice, I was just shattered. It's not that I'm super effeminate, it's just that I'm hardy a stereotypical truck driver either. I've come to really like myself, doing my best to see myself how other people see me, but not everyone has that luxory. So your friend may well think he's the epitome of masculinity and not lying to anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
You just know me too well don't ya! :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Well I am not sure what else I can say on the matter, other than it is more about a persons preference than a label. It was taken into consideration that a persons view of themselves may not be how others perceive them, however I really couldn't think of a better way to go about this.
I spoke with a friend earlier and he came to the same conclusion, actually his statement was, "well a search for a man looking for a man just doesn't make sense either, it is a hookup site for gay men, I would hope there would be men looking for men there, you have to go deeper than that somehow"
I am open to suggestions on this if anyone has any but I really don't think there is a "make everyone happy" solution here, and believe me when I say this one really is working QUITE well so far, but I am game for changes, after all its not about what I think, it is about the bottom line for everyone involved, affiliates and myself alike.
Well for what it is worth. I think that your choice makes perfect sense. If I were on your site looking for another man then I would want to know if the man I was looking for considered his mannerisms to be either fem or masculine. You are right, you can't please everyone all of the time.
Well, well, well, here are all you fags again arguing and swinging your purses around. Be REAL men and suppress your feelings like you're supposed to. :heart:
There has been the long-standing negative stigma associated with homosexuality and femininity. I don't think that if one labels themself a certain way, it's inevitably/obviously due to an insecurity. At least not always. There are counter-examples to everything, but I'm sure there are lots of insecure folks out there too.
Insecurity isn't a gay thing either. How does it really differ from straight people? I don't know how the female mind works, but I would think that straight men can compensate for insecurities just the same. I've no specific knowledge or read any studies, but if insecurities in homosexuals is compounded, I would think that it is largely because homosexuality as a recognized community is not even 1 generation old. There is going to be a maturization process in how we (general "we") see ourselves for at least as long as there is a majority that see us as "less than" due to the persisting negative stigma.
Lots of minorities have suffered from that.
No need to even mention insecurities of women, either.
Buck could kick all of our asses anyway, so chew on that you self-labeling "masculine" fagbois. :china:
But back to the issue. Fem vs. Masc on a website... Meh, whatever. My first impression was, "This must be run by a straight company," because that's an atypical first-stop in how guys connect. Profiling their mannerisms is fine, but many are slanted in their self-perception. Ever watch Idol? I just wouldn't use it as a starting point, is all. As primarily a hookup site, I'd probably start with Top/Bottom/Versatile.
BTW, you know I love ya's. Don't think my first line is serious. Or else you're REALLY insecure. :)
Something else I've noticed. It seems to be human nature to criticize but people rarely offer a helpful counter suggestion. Thanks to HotMaleVideos for doing just that (and anyone else who may have that I've missed). To offer a suggestion myself, I don't think the masculine/feminine question is that bad, but if it's one of only a few choices than you really run the risk of alienating a lot of gay men, just in the wording. However, if this question were posed in a long list of attributes, say "masculine/feminine/top/bottom/kinky/leather/fetish/humorous/serious/jock/punk/business/preppy", then you have a wide range of things to choose from. I always hate forms that only give you two choices when you fall in between.
Now see that is what I am looking for! I can add things a lot easier than I can change things. Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by DonMike
Personally I don't mind being asked any question, as long as I have the choice not to answer.
The problem with those kind of questionnaires is that for me most questions can't be answered with just a tick in a box.
This makes it sometimes extremely difficult to find the right partner. I just have to leave too many questions unanswered. So guys would have to take the time to ask me personally. Maybe I've missed out some great fucks because of this. :D
I can totally understand this. I think a really good interface for a dating site is one with a nice checklist of interests that can be searched by a database while also having a part where the user can fill in a little bit about them and what they are looking for. That way when you are browsing profiles you can search by the keywords for people with your same interests and then read the profiles once you narrow down your search. It's a good way to represent yourself in a profile while still allowing the person doing to search to easily make their way through a large number of profiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by attis
If the profiles on a hookup site were based entirely on an essay format you would have less people signing up, navigation would be much harder because people often use different terms for things, and it would not be very, as we used to say in the old days, user friendly.
It would also make me very sad for the state of human kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonMike
I am helping a friend grade some of her College Research 101 essays, and they are HORRIBLE. I mean, come on, these kids are in college for Christ's sake.
That is one of the issues I tried to cure with our interests list, although I think I could still add a bit to it, what do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by DonMike
1 Arts / Crafts
2 Astrology / New Age
3 Athletics
4 Baseball / Softball
5 Billiards / Pool / Darts
6 Boxing / Wrestling
7 Cars / Motorcycles
8 Computers / Internet
9 Cooking
10 Cricket
11 Cycling
12 Dancing
13 Food and Wine
14 Football / Soccer / Rugby
15 Gardening
16 Golf
17 Gym / Aerobics
18 Hiking / Camping
19 Ice / Snow Sports
20 Literature / History
21 Martial Arts
22 Motor Racing
23 Mountaineering
24 Movies / Cinema
25 Museums / Galleries
26 Music - Alternative
27 Music - Blues/Jazz
28 Music - Christian / Gospel
29 Music - Classical / Opera
30 Music - Country
31 Music - Dance / Electronic
32 Music - Latin
33 Music - New Age
34 Music - Pop / R&B
35 Music - Rock
36 Music - World
37 Nature
38 Nightclubs / Clubs
39 Politics
40 Religion
41 Sailing / Boating
42 Shopping
43 Singing / Playing Instrument
44 Tennis / Racket Sports
45 Theatre / Ballet
46 Travel / Sightseeing
47 Volleyball / Basketball
48 Volunteer / Charity
49 Water Sports
50 Yoga / Meditation
It would be fantastic if dating sites had a function for searching for keywords in the entire profile, not only for certain things you tick in a checklist. At least I don't know about a site which has this feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonMike
For example, I have a profile on a big dating site from Europe and in your profile you can fill in in which age range the guy you are looking for should be. Unfortunately this information isn't searchable, so it's always a real pain to go through profile after profile just to find out that the cute guy from your town isn't interested in people in your age.
Also they have big boxes where you can write a lot of stuff about your personality or your sexual preferences, but again, such data is not searchable. I bet there a lot of matches for me (I'm not that spoiled), but I will never discover those gems simply because I can't search for them properly.
Of course you can't expect everybody to write long stories or even essays about themselves and their desires, but those who do are usually worth at least a second look. So the possibility to write some more about yourself definitely should be there. If I'm just looking for a quick suck or fuck I can always stick with the beautiful faces and profiles in which the only information given is the dick size (and take away at least 1 or 2 inches). :D
that's something i never got. "Who's the girl in that relationship". It's kinda funny. Kinda.
Ever see two gay guys together and don't realize till much later that they're gay? That still surprises me. I don't believe in "gaydar" or all that, but usually someone who isn't in a closet says or does something that let's me know where they're coming from.
You should probably check out ManLuv's advanced search, it's a lot more advanced than most other places, you can search for just about anything, height, weight, eye color, smoker, non smoker, hell the possibilities are endless.Quote:
Originally Posted by attis
http://manluv.com/index.php?page=search
No worries, Don. I'm quite vocal about my own insecurities. I've never denied that I have them. One of the reasons that I AM so vocal about tackling some of these issues in the gay community is that I myself have been affected by them. By offering my own experiences as an example, it gives people the personal connection they need to take it seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonMike
Obviously, we are all prone to being affected and/or feeling alienated at times by the gay culture (or any other, for that matter) at large.
There is a lot of pressure in the gay community to look a certain way. That much is obvious. And I guarantee you it affects a lot of gay men and women who wish they "measured up" more.
You are absolutely right that you have to love yourself. That's why this year has been, for me, all about getting my shit together. By focusing on the things about my body that I don't like, focusing on the things about my career that I don't like, and focusing on the things about my apartment that I don't like, I've managed to create a much different and more productive life for myself. Working out at the gym has had an immense and very profound affect on every area of my life. I walk more confidently when I walk into a room of people I don't know. I participate more actively in coversations with new people. I am more vocal when I am unhappy or feeling unchallenged in my job. This doesn't even have to do with my body, but it's more about the happiness and the confidence that comes from knowing you can do something you previously thought you couldn't.
Because of my experiences in school (being picked on by the jocks, teased by almost everyone in my life about being a "sissy boy"), I grew up feeling inadequate and thinking that athletics were for the "normal boys." Certainly not for me. I never felt that it was a culture I could participate in. I thought I would fail at it.
Deciding to work out had a lot less to do with wanting to be "hot" or getting laid than it did with overcoming one of my biggest fears in life. Imagine the feeling of elation and liberation, then, that comes with facing that fear of failure and totally overcoming it. I CAN do it. I HAVE done it. And it's changed my life in ways I never even thought possible. Suddenly a lot of the nagging insecurities in my life have vanished, just because I got off my ass, stopped telling myself I couldn't do something, and DID IT.
That is a common experience for all human beings, not just gay people. It happens every day. BUT... it's important to note that MANY gay kids grow up feeling ostracized and alienated by their straight peers, and it causes them a lot of emotional trauma. It stunts their maturing process in a big way. We grow up feeling distrustful of other people, escecially those who feel we have to keep our sexuality hidden from. This is not a new concept, and I am certainly not the only gay person who has ever had these feelings.
Patti, I don't know if you meant to imply that the gay community has never struggled with the issue of masculinity vs. femininity, or if you were just saying that there are lots of gay people who haven't been affected by those particular issues, but I'm going to assume you meant the latter. And with that I agree. Not everybody shares the same issues that I have faced in my life. But LOTS of people have.Quote:
btw, ken - there are gay men out there that are centered and happy. there are also gay men with tons of issues, but masculine vs feminine was never one of them. everyone doesn't have the same problems or we'd never have drama.
Lee basically tried to say that I was some kind of freak of nature by insinuating that I was the ONLY person who'd struggled with masculintiy issues. My point is that a very large portion of the gay community has faced identical and/or very similar struggles in their lives. That's why I can be critical of things like "straight guy" niche sites that attempt to say that straight guy are somehow MORE masculine and/or desirable than gay men, and that's also why I think it's important to offer adult content that reinforces healthy positive examples of human sexuality, as opposed to gay content that reinforces archaic stereotypes about masculinity and/or desirabilty.
I've said this before and I will say it again with the same conviction: The gay community is not the happy, sunny place of liberation that it is made out to be. I meet guy guys all the time in their 30s and 40s who are still struggling with coming out, with feeling connected to other gay people, with body issues, with masculinity issues. The fact that these problems still exist says, to me, that we still have a lot of work to do specifically WITHIN the gay community to teach gay men how to feel better about themselves.
And the fact that nobody wants to hear any of this--or that they may disagree--doesn't mean that I'm not right. ;)